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Post by ladytera on Aug 13, 2008 7:13:03 GMT -5
I want to be clear that this thread is open to all comers, not just Christians. It is often revealing what those of other religions, philosophies and ideologies believe about Christianity. So, anyone who has an idea, a thought, a feeling, or questions, please post. The only thing I ask is that everyone remain respectful (no name calling). I do want to warn you up front, I will argue with you. I will tell you where and why I think you're wrong. I will call you out and ask you to support your thoughts. That's how we learn and grow, and if it bugs you to be challenged, you may want to steer clear. I will also tell you that my goal here is not to convert you. That's not my job, and I couldn't if I wanted to. What I do want to do is have a dialog, and maybe we'll all learn something. That is my job. Gotta run for now. I'll check back later. PS If you want an idea of my beliefs about Christianity, check out the Non-Fiction thread under writing.
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Post by keyodie on Aug 15, 2008 6:26:08 GMT -5
Well, first, I wanted to ask you some questions. I did go to church when I was younger, but I still wonder about some things... Do you believe that every event that is in the bible occured sometime in history? (Moses, the Flood, etc.) And how do you believe the old testament came to be, especially the first book that describes how the universe was created?
As I have mentioned before, I'm not an atheist, I think there may be something that may or may not have created this Earth. I tend to lean towards a mother nature sort of thing, but I do know that I don't know anything about this. I just feel that religion is the product of people wanting to explain the mysteries of life because the endless possibilities scare them, but I may be wrong.
I figure that if I live my life in the way that makes me happy and make choices in the way that I feel is right, if I die and there is a god, I won't be punished just because I did not worship that god. And if I was punished for that, is it really a god worth worshipping? (There was a quote about that somewhere, I forgot what it was.)
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Post by ladytera on Aug 16, 2008 2:24:16 GMT -5
Well, first, I wanted to ask you some questions. I did go to church when I was younger, but I still wonder about some things... Do you believe that every event that is in the bible occured sometime in history? (Moses, the Flood, etc.) And how do you believe the old testament came to be, especially the first book that describes how the universe was created? Terrific questions. First let me say that I am not a theologian (don't study the Bible in depth). So the only answers I can give you are those based on my own personal experiences, and I have the say the majority of what I've really, solidly learned about being a Christian, while its related to the Bible, didn't start with the Bible. You might say I'm a little hard headed, so rather than learn the easy way, like reading it in a book, I had to screw up repeatedly instead. ;D I do believe that for the most part the events in the Bible did occur. There is ample historical evidence to support that as fact. I also believe that the Bible is the Word of God, as the saying goes. But, I believe it is the Word of God, written through the prism of man, and then translated multiple times in multiple eras, so I'm thinking somethings might have been lost or changed in the translation. As for the Old testament, and particularly, the story of creation, I would guess it was written by historians of the time, or by what we would probably consider reporters today. The story of creation probably started as an oral history, that was at some point laid down in print. Did it happen just as the story describes? I don't know. Was it an allegory to illustrate something, rather than an actual set of events, I don't know. The minutia of historical research has always made me nuts, so I probably won't ever know, until I get a chance to ask God directly. What I do know is that God uses the Bible as a tool to talk to us. There are stories there that I learned as a child, and didn't think much of, and randomly ran across years later flipping through the Bible, that suddenly spoke to a specific problem in my life, or a specific question I had at the time. I think by design, the Bible is a guideline, and a communication tool, and a way to tell us what will make our lives as happy and prosperous as they are meant to be, especially when we can't see a clear path forward. One other thing about the Bible, that you have to understand when you're reading it, is that it has to be looked at in context. A lot of the words used in the text mean something different now than they did when it was written. Society has changed drastically since that time as well. So, if you don't read it with the understanding that it is a historical text it can lead to a lot of misunderstanding. Like the rule in the Old Testament about not eating pigs, because they were unclean. At the time, this would have been a really important rule to follow, because you could get lots of diseases from eating pigs. Later, Jesus said that it was not the food you ate that made you unclean, but the things already inside you, kind of lifting that ban. I kind of look at the Old and New Testament as God's rules for us when we were children as opposed to God's rules for us as we grew into adults as a species. The basics stayed the same, but some of the ones like don't touch the fire 'cause it'll burn you, got left more to our own judgment. Whew, okay, so I got a little long winded. But, like I said it was a good question. It's always good to know what you don't know. That way you keep asking questions. The Mother Nature sort of thing is not particularly far off. If I believe that God created the heavens and the earth, and everything in them, and the He is everywhere and in everything, then I kind of have to believe that He is mother nature. Nor do I believe that because I call Him Daddy that He is necessarily male. As to religion, you may be partly right there as well. Religion and faith are not one and the same thing. I don't go to church every Sunday. That doesn't make my faith any less strong, or my worship of God any less important. It just means that right now, for whatever reason, I'm not going to a building with a preacher every Sunday morning. I am, however, sitting here talking to 20 other people about God, and answering your questions at 3 in the morning on a Saturday, and I believe that is just as important to Him as if I was in church tomorrow. Matter of fact, I'm pretty sure He meant for me to be doing precisely this, right now. Probably why I couldn't get back to sleep after my 15 minute nap during Monk, and staying up an hour to watch Psych. God speaks to everyone differently. For some people, me included at different times in my life, that means a church service. For some that means reading their Bible every morning, for some it means doing good works, and for some it means playing on the internet and having fun conversations. Faith is never about what you must do, it's about what God puts in your heart to do. Organized religion can be a tremendous outlet for this, allowing people who have similar beliefs to come together and accomplish much more than they could alone. It gives you the comfort and support of knowing that even though your are never alone because God is with you, you are also not alone in the flesh either. Unfortunately, sometimes, religion can be just as good at clouding your connection to God with human judgment, envy, fear, and anger. You just have to be choosy about the church you attend, and find one where God speaks to you through the people, through the preacher, through the music, or through the mission. I've been there, and done that, and I won't preach too much at you about it, because essentially, I can tell you why that approach will eventually fail, but you'll probably have to learn it for yourself. While something you are thinking about doing now might make you happy in this moment, it very well might make you miserable in the long run. Take relationships. You have a partner, you're in love, you decide to have sex. Two months from now, you find out that he/she was cheating on you, you're pregnant, and you have an STD. The entire course of your life has now changed because of a decision that made you happy at the time. You have to drop out of school, skip college, put your kids up for adoption (always wonder what became of them), have an abortion (always wonder what might that life have turned into, could they have discovered the cure for cancer, found the means for peace on earth, become President, or just given you beautiful grandchildren), or put them in daycare for someone else to raise. You have to take medication for the rest of your life for the STD, and when you finally meet and marry the right someone, you run the risk of infecting them as well, that's if it's not of the lethal variety like AIDS. Again, all that from a choice to do what made you happy in the moment. As to choosing what you feel is right, again, this can lead to trouble. What if you feel that animal research is wrong, as a result you join a group who is against this practice. You attend their meetings, and their protests. You listen to their teachings, and eventually one of them gets the bright idea to blow up a lab. Now, whether you decide at that point that it is right to blow up the lab, you will be permanently linked to that group as an active member, and have that forever one your record. This could possibly affect the entire course of you career, putting off any job that requires a background check or security clearance, and possibly sending you to jail for aiding and abetting terrorists. All because you believed it was right, at the time to fight against animal research. Right and wrong are not relative turns. While life has many shades of gray, and degrees of culpability may vary, wrong is still wrong. When we depend on our own perception at any given point in our lives, our limited knowledge, lack of understanding of the big picture, and emotional and idealogical views will eventually lead us astray. It is essential to a happy life, over the long term, that you have a grounding in what is right and what is wrong, whether that's Christianity, another religion, the law, the Constitution, or something else that clearly defines the difference. To your last question, I can't say I have the answer, exactly. But I do remember passages in the Bible that kind of talk about it. To paraphrase, You are the Lord of Lords and the King of Kings and every knee will bow, every voice will speak your name. It doesn't say that only some of us will know him, and only some of us will bow to him. It say everyone, man, animal, and demon. It just says that it'll go a lot easier for those who come to him on faith, without definitive proof. So, do I think you'll go to Hell, or perhaps the Catholic Purgatory, I honestly don't know. I believe there is a Hell. I don't think it involves fire and brimstone. I think it is much simpler, and infinitely more painful. I think it is an absence of God and all that he represents. No love, no friendship, no relationship, no forgiveness, no mercy. Personally, I think that'd suck. And I think when we don't talk to him, don't listen to him, and insist on going our own way, we put ourselves in Hell a little every day right here on earth. But, that's not Biblical, that's just my own opinion, based on my own experiences. BTW, God doesn't ever stop loving us, even when we won't love him back. So, He doesn't consign us to Hell, we do that ourselves by rejecting His love and turning aways from him. I hope that answered your questions, and maybe sparked some new ones for you or someone else. Sorry if it was too long. In case you hadn't noticed, or Ammy didn't mention it, I really like to write.
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Post by keyodie on Aug 16, 2008 8:21:39 GMT -5
Thank you for answering my questions! 'Twas very interesting. Since we pretty much agreed with my first two paragraphs, I'll just move onto your last response. xD Let me just clarify that when I said 'do what makes you happy', I do not mean 'do what makes you happy at this moment and don't ever think about your happiness in the long run'. Yes, I will still do what makes me happy, but I'm not going to be stupid about it. Why? Because this would make the 'do what makes you happy' bit slightly pointless in the future, because I will be completely miserable (as you said). I will still try to make the best choices and decisions for myself. What I am not going to do is get a job at some office where I have to work 9 hours a day, the boss thinks I'm a piece of crap, I hate the job, and I have to get a shrink to tell me I'm stressed all so I can afford food and TV and anti-depressants. (Phew! Long sentence.) I still think though that planning too far ahead isn't good for you... it can take the joy out of things. If you didn't have to overcome obstacles and enjoy the ride every once in a while, wouldn't life be a bit boring? Just as an example, in my favorite show 'Six Feet Under' (Watch it. It is AMAZING.), the main character is planning on going to New York for a job she got. However, at the last minute, she gets a call and is told that her job had to be relocated to San Francisco. She ended up going to New York anyway, just to see what happens, and to just let the chips fall where they may. Of course, she went to New York with an apartment that was ready for her and some money so she won't end up being a hobo. But she still did what made her happy. Now, as for the 'what I believe is right' part, I don't think I understand how the anti animal research group story is relevant. I think it's unlikely that a group would do that, but I guess it could happen. However, that's just a risk I would have to take. We take risks every day in our lives, even waking up in the morning is a risk. The impression I'm getting though is that you don't think we should support things that we believe in just because it might lead to something bad. Can't all things lead to something bad? Again, if I was to join a group like that, that's just a risk I would have to take. Everything we do in life has consequences, whether we plan for it or not. Some things may be a completely innocent choice on our part that leads to disaster. And I would also like to clarify that when I say what I believe is right, I wasn't trying to give the impression that I don't know what right and wrong is. Of course my sense of right and wrong is going to change over time, but isn't it the same for everyone? Our views aren't going to stay the same forever. It is going to change, evolve, strengthen, and weaken as we experience new things. Ah, well I'm just going to have to find out. xD And no problem! Long posts are good. I found the quote: "Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones." ~ Marcus Aurelius ETA:: Typo. -.- By the way, I know I switched from past tense to present tense a lot. *is annoyed by her grammar*
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Post by misaki on Aug 21, 2008 15:11:32 GMT -5
It's so hard to say what Christianity means to me. On one side, I'm pretty positive about it, since it teaches people to love. But that's far from unique. And to be honest, Buddhists have so far been a whole lot more practical on actually practising that par of their religion. On the other hand, I think it's an awful thing, one of the worst popular religions after the Islam. Christianity to me, means making people dependant on an Invisible Man Up in the Sky, and brutally limiting their mental freedom. For example; someone is in deep trouble, doesn't have any self-esteem left. Finally, the person gathers the strength to get out of a situation. That's an enormous personal success, wonderful! However, the person in his/her desperation seeks help everywhere, including, God. And after all the hard work he or she did himself, they somehow end up thinking God did that, dedicate their life to him and limit further mental growth. That depresses me. I've seen it happen. I've also seen people do it on their own, without God. There wasn't any difference, the only difference was that they weren't limited in their mental freedom afterwards. Christianity also means arrogance to me. People thinking their way of viewing the world is the one and only right one, and seeing other ways of doing so not as different points of view as looking at 'something higher', but as inferior and wrong. You can try to put it nicely, but just read the Bible and ask some Christians, and they'll tell you just exactly that in a nicer or less nice way. It annoys me very much when people feel free to state that their way of living is the only way to be happy, when the evidence proves them, well, wrong. None of my friends is Christian, and I can assure you that they do have a lot of meaning in their life and are far from depressed. Same goes for me. All this talk about 'Jesus is my life' scares me. I'm glad my life isn't Jesus, my life is mine and very much filled with many other things. I don't say these things out of ignorance; I've read the bible through many times and studied a lot on different interpretations of verses. My mum is a Jehovah's Witness, and though they're not exactly Christian ( well, a form of it, but their believes are so different that I can't really call them that way), she's always encouraged me to read the Bible a lot and discuss with other people about it. I've also debated for about a year with a more liberal christian, so I really know how I feel about this now. Aside from all that...I agree with some of Jesus' speeches. I think Jesus was a great person. For his time. I certainly believe there was a historical Jesus. But there is absolutely no real proof for him being divine at all, and even if he was, that wouldn't change a thing. I completely disagree with what whatever church, from catholic to protestant or JW, preaches nowadays, and if I go to hell for that, fine! If God's such a lame guy, I don't plan on worshipping him anyway. And I think all interesting people would end up in Hell anyway, if he'd be as judgemental as many Christians. Well, that instantly turns Hell into The Place To Go. I'd rather not spend eternity among people who worship a judgemental huge cosmic being with a dictator-like personality. That's be like worshipping president Putin. xD Christians, however, can be really nice persons to be around. However much I disagree with their ideas, if they don't try to convert me, they're usually really nice, honest people. Well, most of the time. Once again, that's not really unique, but still. What does annoy me a lot is how Christians so easily mix personal religion an politics. I have the urge to run into a wall every time Bush mentions God. What does God have to do with it?! Seriously. Please respect those laws about politics and church NOT being connected. Well, I hope that wasn't too offensive
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Post by ladytera on Aug 21, 2008 21:29:52 GMT -5
Aerlinn, not offensive. I didn't want you or keyodie to think I was ignoring this discussion. I'm actually quite enjoying it, but I'm slammed at the moment between work, homeschooling a four year old, and Scouts I think my brain leaked out of my ears, and the clock seems set on fast forward. I should slow down a little tomorrow however (hopefully), and I'll get back on some of the more specific points on the last two posts then. Until then, I love the input, the thoughts, and ideas. Thanks so much for being willing to share!
LT
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Post by ladytera on Aug 22, 2008 7:05:15 GMT -5
Thank you for answering my questions! 'Twas very interesting. Glad you're enjoying the discussion. I have to say planning ahead is not my strong suit. You can ask Ammy about the time we went on vacation for three weeks, at the same time our lease was up. Since we were going to be gone for most of a month any way, and we wanted to move, I got the brilliant idea to throw all our earthly belongings in storage, throw the kids and dogs in the van, and take off for South Dakota, with the intention of finding a new place when we got back a week before school started. I have to say it was most certainly interesting, a lot of fun, and I learned that with an ex-husband ready to use any excuse for taking custody, being technically homeless can be a little nerve wracking. I also learned that if you trust God, he always provides. After driving around all day, about ready to give up and go back to the camp ground we were staying in, we decided to make a last ditch effort to check out a little town we'd been wanting to move to for a year. Only problem, they never have anything to rent up there, and we didn't have the money to buy. After driving all over the back roads, we were finally coming back down the main highway through town, and there was a for rent sign. We called, it had enough bedrooms, and a huge yard, and we rented the place sight unseen. It wasn't the best place I've ever lived, but the school was awesome, it wasn't bad, and it was a terrific step up from where we'd been living. So, it all worked out, just as I knew it would despite a momentary twinge of doubt. You will never get anywhere in life without taking some risks to get what you want. The key is knowing what you want first, and it's essential to have some guiding principles, so you don't give up more than you can afford. That was a bad analogy. My only excuse is that I was really tired, and I've been od'ing on politics lately. I'm actually a pretty strong advocate of supporting the things that you believe in, and doing something about it when you believe something is wrong. I think you have the key in that last bit. Our view of what is right and wrong does evolve over time. The key to not straying to far from the path is to remember that it is only our perception of right and wrong that change, not right and wrong themselves. Again, it comes back to having strong guiding principles to guide you through the gray areas until you've experienced enough to gain wisdom. I don't entirely disagree with the quote. Just a thought on history though. The Roman Empire eventually fell, and a large part of its fall was due to a degeneration of the morals of Roman Society. Right and wrong became blurred, opening the way for massive corruption in the government, and complacency in the citizenry. Part of that was due to the loss of their belief system. Part of it, historically, was the encroachment of Christianity, and their refusal to believe in it. Does that mean God smote them? I don't know. But it does show what happens to a society when there is a vacuum of beliefs. Aerlinn, I gotta go to bed, and yours is going to take a little longer to answer. I'll try to get back to it this evening. LT
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Post by ladytera on Aug 22, 2008 21:17:13 GMT -5
Aerlinn, before I get into the rest of this, I wanted to thank you for the terrific post. There were a lot of great points, and you've obviously gone to a good bit of thought and trouble to express them. I love that! I just wanted to give you fair warning again (see the first post) I'm going to argue with you. I love that too, because it makes me think about why I believe what I believe, and exercise my brain to put it into words. So, here goes. Actually, Buddhism isn't technically a religion, it is a philosophy that focuses on self-awareness, and one's place in the cosmic scheme of things. There is no god as part of this philosophy, and the Japanese are a case in point that the teachings or Budda and the teachings of Christ can be followed by one and the same person. They are also a case in point that even the most peaceful of teachings can be used as a means of committing great atrocities. The Samurai code of Bushido was an extension of the Buddhist religion held during the time of the Shoguns, and it was used to create a merciless class of warriors who fought to the death for the honor of their Shogun. Worse than that, if they dared to question the designs of their leaders, be it the Shogun or the Emperor, they were named Ronin, or masterless, and exiled from their society. Because in the teachings of Japan, the Emperor was God, and the Shogun's his emissaries. That is a somewhat simplified capsulation, and only addresses Buddhism in Japan during that time period, but you get the idea. There is a key difference between Christianity and all the other popular religions, as you call them. While salvation in Christianity requires the acceptance of Christ as the savior, the decision to make that choice is left to the individual. A common misconception, that is unfortunately perpetuated from many pulpits (damn I'm feeling alliterate tonight), is that Christianity is all about Christ. It's not. The very basis of Christianity is the idea that we are all endowed by God at our creation with free will, and that He has limited himself by promising us He will not interfere with our choices. After all, what is love and faith but slavery if it is forced? As someone who has gone through precisely this type of situation, I can speak to this on a little more personal and specific level. If you want a more full story of what I'm talking about, you can take a look at the post I put into the Life thread. BTW, keyodie, I'm sorry I killed that thread. It was pretty interesting, and I was kind of bummed that I killed the discussion. I can only assume I got a little too heavy. The fact that God's hand was a part of the situation in no way limits the strength it took to overcome those circumstances, or the patience, perseverance and love it took to rebuild a life for my kids and I. Nor has the experience of growing closer to God, and understanding that I am loved and looked after, even when I may not be aware of that protection, or desirous of it, in no way limits my mental capacity and growth. God instilled in each of us a curiosity, a hunger for knowledge, a talent of some kind, and all sorts of other great things. It would be kind of silly of us not to utilize the gifts we've been given to the fullest extent possible. So in general, Christianity is not meant to limit our understanding, our questioning, and our seeking, it is meant to give us the freedom to explore as far and wide as possible, to risk everything for something we believe in (and I don't mean just God), and to do so with the knowledge that while we may fail, we may lose, and the consequences may sometimes seem overwhelming, we are always loved, and if we look hard enough, and don't give up, there will always be a success at the end of the fall. Not because God will do it all for us, but because He will provide the opportunities for us to excel. There is no limitation there. The other thing Christianity is designed to do comes back to my last post. It provides us a frame work of right and wrong so we don't do ourselves irreparable harm if our explorations take us too far from where we need to be. This is kind of a quintessential argument. The simple fact is that if you believe the Bible to be true, and the Resurrection to be the only way to salvation, you also have to believe that this is the only right way. It's not arrogance, but faith. The key here is that it isn't our job as Christians to condemn anyone else for not believing as we do, but to live our lives as an example of why we believe what we do, to share our experiences so that someone else can learn from them. As a Christian, I do flat our believe that it isn't a matter of different points of view. But as a human being, I know my understanding, both of God, and of any other person's life, is imperfect. So I can't convert people to Christianity, nor would I want to try. Most Christians who are mature in their faith feel the same way. I have to say that first line made me chuckle a little, and I don't say that to be offensive or rude. One of the greatest things about America is the absolute right to say pretty much any damn thing we choose. And you have an absolute right to be annoyed by it. As to the idea that there is no happiness without God, I can't speak to that. The actual evidence shows that people of faith, who practice it regularly, tend to live happier, longer lives. They tend to suffer less from mental illnesses. Does that mean that everyone who does not follow God is a closet depressive on the verge of suicide? Absolutely not. Does it mean that their lives are without hope or meaning? Nope. Does either of these change the fact that I believe as a Christian their lives would be better with God? Not one iota, but the fact also still remains that that is their choice to make, not mine. I've gotta say I didn't figure you were ignorant on the subject. You seem to have given it quite a bit of thought. You are right the the JW's aren't generally considered to be a Christian sect, even though they do follow the Bible. The difference, as I understand it (and I do have to say I am a little ignorant here) is that they have an additional book they use as part of their scriptures, they believe it is part of their mission to convert people, and they believe that access to heaven requires more than the acceptance of Christ as their savior. I had a boyfriend once who was a Jehovah's Witness, and I attended a service or two, and I have to say I was a little distressed by some of the teachings. On the other hand, the Jehovah's Witness lady who used to come witness to my house a few years back was very nice, and I enjoyed talking religion with her, even though she thought I was a heathen. All I can say on this is that religion is imperfect, because it is a construct of man to try to understand a creator who is beyond our comprehension. As such, no two Christians are the same, no two beliefs or faiths are identical, and each of us is fallibly, fatally human. So I try just do my best to accept each one as they are and for who they are, and figure God will take care of the rest. As to the last comment. You sound very much like you know how you feel about it right now, I can only say that I hope you continue to explore everything that is out there, because you might feel differently about it tomorrow, or next month, or decades from now. Knowledge is the only way to gain wisdom, and the more you have of it, the more solidly you will know who you are and what you want as you continue to grow. Okay, this one made me chuckle too. I've been there and done that. I am far from having lived a blameless, spotless life, and there have been times when I have been as broken as you can get. The Bible never did require us to follow the teachings of a "church" in the sense of what the means now. Jesus came to set us free of the trappings that the Jewish hierarchy had begun to set up as a barrier between God and His people. He came so that we would no longer have to talk to God through a priest, we could go directly to the source. One of my very favorite movies of all time is Dogma. As someone who isn't Christian, you might think I would find the movie offensive. But in reality, it points out the absurdity of any man or woman claiming to be the final word in what God wants. It shows up the ridiculousness of becoming so wrapped up in the rituals and restrictions of man that we lose touch with God. In short, it was a terrific indictment of the failings of the Church, and the transcendence of God. Another great show I've really enjoyed lately is Saving Grace. The main character is an absolute wreck, who is running from God, with good reason in her own mind. It is all about his infinite patience, and his relentless pursuit when we are in our darkest times, even when we believe that we are happy, but are on the road to self destruction. I'd imagine a great deal of the Christian community is up in arms about the show (although I haven't really checked). But I find it illustrative of exactly what Jesus was all about. He didn't hang out with the "good" guys. He came to hang out with the poor, the whores, the lepers, the broken. Those were the people he tried to reach, because they were the ones who were looking for him. I hope you don't think I'm trying to convert you. Couple things here. First there are NO laws about politics and church not being connected. The Separation of Church and State that you were referring to is not now, nor was it ever a law. It was a line in a letter written by Thomas Jefferson to a Baptist Church to assure them that the new federal government would not be allowed to persecute them because they were not adherents of a different sect of Christianity. This fear stemmed from the fact that in England, where the majority of new Americans were from, you were not allowed to participate in government unless you were a member of the Church of England. The only reference to religion in our founding documents are these, there is a clause in the main part of the Constitution that states there cannot be a religious test to qualify to run for office. The other is the First Amendment, which states that Congress shall make now law restricting the peoples right to practice their religion as they see fit, and that Congress will make no law establishing a national religion. That's it, that's all she wrote. All the debate about ten commandments displays, prayer in school, nativity scenes, etc. has been sparked by a recent twisting of those words to mean that any show of Christianity in the public square is a violation, but that is not true. In fact, all decisions to impede these things are a direct violation of the Freedom of Religion part, and entirely unconstitutional. As to Bush, or any other politician mentioning God, as a Christian, who is mature in their faith, you cannot divorce your faith from your life, whether it is politics, or whether or not you tip your waiter, or how you treat your lawn guy. Christian faith is not about church service on Sunday morning, it is about the guiding principles, beliefs and faith that sustain you and guide you in good and bad times. And for a person of faith, whichever one, God has everything to do with it. I would be much more frightened of someone who quoted bible verses one day, when speaking to Christians, and never spoke of God again in any other venue. BTW, the same people who discussed the Separation of Church and State you talked about, were also the ones who stated that our form of government could not survive except for a people who followed the tenets of the Judeao-Christian faith. Because for it to function properly, there must be a clear understanding of right and wrong, and there must be a clear humility in our leaders that leads them to understand that it is their duty and responsibility to lead us, not their right. In short, our leaders have to know that they are not God, or they will try very hard to become the dictators you think that God might be. LT
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Post by Caunion on Aug 23, 2008 3:19:10 GMT -5
Okay, I've been meaning to post in this thread for a very very long time but busy life. I'm sure many of you will sympathise.
Like Aerlinn, to describe exactly what Christianity means to me is very difficult. As a child, I was raised as a Christian before I broke away from the bonds that were set on me. On one hand, I've seen what Christianity does some good to the world. It encourages people to love and have hope. It gives people a moral system and a model to live after. And as shallow as it sounds, the artwork made in the name of Christianity, the paintings, the sculptures, the cathedrals, are very impressive and very inspiring.
Unfortunately, there's the negative side. We all know about the nasty things people have done in Jesus's name or in the name of Christianity so I won't go on about that. But most of the churches still use the Old Testament in conjunction with the New Testament and I find many of the laws in the Old Testament either barbaric or ridiculous. In addition, I dislike the concept of Hell and how frequently it is reinforced in several churches. They do their best to impress on everyone that hell is horrible and that the only way to escape hell and go to heaven is to accept Jesus in their hearts. Unfortunately it looks like blackmail from where I'm standing. You either do this or something bad happens to you. And I do realise that people and churches aren't all like that and I applaud and respect those who don't believe anyone who doesn't submit to their narrow point of view are worth living. In addition to the blackmail/Hell scheme, another thing I do not find favourable in Christianity is their intolerance of questions in their faith. While I understand it is very difficult to have someone question a time-old belief and will come as a very large shock, many great scientists and philosophers as well as ideas have been silenced or opposed by Christians who feel threatened with what the ideas have to say.
To me, Christians can be good people and they can be bad people. I know a couple Christians who are compassionate and kind who don't try to convert me. On the other hand, I know a couple Christians who are bigoted and intolerant so I really don't know how to make of it.
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Post by ladytera on Aug 23, 2008 18:31:45 GMT -5
Oops. I had actually written a response, and apparently didn't hit the copy key in the word processor, didn't check it when I post, and promptly closed without saving. Caunion, I've gotta get back to work at the moment. I promise I'll get back to you on this soon.
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Post by keyodie on Aug 24, 2008 23:49:48 GMT -5
I have to say planning ahead is not my strong suit. You can ask Ammy about the time we went on vacation for three weeks, at the same time our lease was up. Since we were going to be gone for most of a month any way, and we wanted to move, I got the brilliant idea to throw all our earthly belongings in storage, throw the kids and dogs in the van, and take off for South Dakota, with the intention of finding a new place when we got back a week before school started. I have to say it was most certainly interesting, a lot of fun, and I learned that with an ex-husband ready to use any excuse for taking custody, being technically homeless can be a little nerve wracking. I also learned that if you trust God, he always provides. After driving around all day, about ready to give up and go back to the camp ground we were staying in, we decided to make a last ditch effort to check out a little town we'd been wanting to move to for a year. Only problem, they never have anything to rent up there, and we didn't have the money to buy. After driving all over the back roads, we were finally coming back down the main highway through town, and there was a for rent sign. We called, it had enough bedrooms, and a huge yard, and we rented the place sight unseen. It wasn't the best place I've ever lived, but the school was awesome, it wasn't bad, and it was a terrific step up from where we'd been living. So, it all worked out, just as I knew it would despite a momentary twinge of doubt. You will never get anywhere in life without taking some risks to get what you want. The key is knowing what you want first, and it's essential to have some guiding principles, so you don't give up more than you can afford. Great story. ;D And I agree with the last bit, you won't get anywhere without taking risks. That was a bad analogy. My only excuse is that I was really tired, and I've been od'ing on politics lately. I'm actually a pretty strong advocate of supporting the things that you believe in, and doing something about it when you believe something is wrong. I think you have the key in that last bit. Our view of what is right and wrong does evolve over time. The key to not straying to far from the path is to remember that it is only our perception of right and wrong that change, not right and wrong themselves. Again, it comes back to having strong guiding principles to guide you through the gray areas until you've experienced enough to gain wisdom. xD Haha I thought as much. However, I disagree with the "right and wrong themselves" bit. I don't think there's a set of rules or "right and wrong" out there that are written in stone. It's all about your interpretation of right and wrong. I think, though, that most people base their interpretation on the golden rule. Obviously, most people will agree that things like murder, rape, etc. are "wrong" because they wouldn't want it to be done to them. I don't think there is one point where you've gained enough experience so that you can call yourself wise. No one person can experience everything that can possibly be experienced in this world, and no day will ever be exactly like another. No matter how old you are or how many things you've experienced, you will always continue learning and changing. I don't entirely disagree with the quote. Just a thought on history though. The Roman Empire eventually fell, and a large part of its fall was due to a degeneration of the morals of Roman Society. Right and wrong became blurred, opening the way for massive corruption in the government, and complacency in the citizenry. Part of that was due to the loss of their belief system. Part of it, historically, was the encroachment of Christianity, and their refusal to believe in it. Does that mean God smote them? I don't know. But it does show what happens to a society when there is a vacuum of beliefs. Yes, but religion isn't the sole reason. It was a conflict. And naturally, when there is any conflict in any society (whether it be about religion or not), it can fall apart. Of course, it is religion most of the time. That's just because so many people dedicate their whole lives to religion and are extremely touchy when it comes to that subject.
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Post by keyodie on Aug 25, 2008 0:06:16 GMT -5
ladytera - Don't worry about it! I'm sorry that you had to go through that experience. I guess I just didn't want to question your belief of how you were saved in that situation. I have to say that first line made me chuckle a little, and I don't say that to be offensive or rude. One of the greatest things about America is the absolute right to say pretty much any damn thing we choose. And you have an absolute right to be annoyed by it. As to the idea that there is no happiness without God, I can't speak to that. The actual evidence shows that people of faith, who practice it regularly, tend to live happier, longer lives. They tend to suffer less from mental illnesses. Does that mean that everyone who does not follow God is a closet depressive on the verge of suicide? Absolutely not. Does it mean that their lives are without hope or meaning? Nope. Does either of these change the fact that I believe as a Christian their lives would be better with God? Not one iota, but the fact also still remains that that is their choice to make, not mine. I have no doubt that religious people are much happier than non-religious ones. But I remember I saw a quote before that went something along the lines of... "Saying that a religious man is happier than a non-religious man is saying nothing more than saying a drunk man is happier than a sober one." Now, I am not saying that religious people resemble drunks. The point that the quote brings up though is that if you believe that someone up there has a plan for you, loves you, and has given you a purpose, of course you would be happier. It takes true strength to live your life purposefully without the help of believing in a god.
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Post by misaki on Aug 25, 2008 14:53:43 GMT -5
Aerlinn, before I get into the rest of this, I wanted to thank you for the terrific post. There were a lot of great points, and you've obviously gone to a good bit of thought and trouble to express them. I love that! I just wanted to give you fair warning again (see the first post) I'm going to argue with you. I love that too, because it makes me think about why I believe what I believe, and exercise my brain to put it into words. So, here goes. Haha, Well, I love arguing....uhm *cough* ...debating ( ) too, so that's fine! Oh, I know, I know. I think religions are never either good or bad. Give a merciful person a bible and they will become peace activists, give a cruel person a bible and they'll use it as an excuse to oppress millions. But even though that Japanese thing is pretty much not really what I imagine Buddha to have wanted, or most churches today not what Jesus would've wanted, I'm just comparing the people count here. One word: Crusades. Even the Islam can't compare, and they're generally accused to be violent, which they are in some cases. However, I know many Muslims and they're generally very much westernized here, in fact a lot like Christians in this country. In the Middle ages, it wasn't just Christian extremists. It was nearly everyone. And it was something that went on for a long time. I'm not anti-Jesus. But yes, I'm most definitely anti-church. I don't believe what Jesus claimed to be, but I still think he was an idealist or a least a good person. But Christianity in general, with the Crusades in the past, the native Americans who were forced to convert by both the Spanish in the south and others in the North, and all the slaves that were treated as less, based on a single bible text - No, it wasn't what the Bible originally was meant for, but Christians through the ages have behaved themselves arrogant and cruel. Yes, other religions have had their weird periods as well. but seriously, I don't see the Dalai Lama starting a crusade. The pope? I don't know. Pope Pius accepted Hitler during the 2nd Worldwar. Nothing, nothing can justify that. The bible itself says something on it: "So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit" Well, I think Christianity bore definitely the most awful fruit in the history of ever so far. Yeah, but my point was that, through making people depend on, say the social side of a church, or the fear that they'd go to hell, people are 'forced' to accept Christianity. Well, feeling loved by God/the universe/whatever you want to call it is a good thing, defnitely. Even though I don't believe and feel perfectly fine without it, I do realize it makes some people happier. But Christianity is defnbitely a limitation. Gay marriage? Forbidden by the Bible and most churches. Just one example of the bizarities of Christianity. I know gay people. I've seen gay boys in love. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it, it's just as sweet as a a non-gay couple. Yet Christianity teaches that, for example, a man to love aman is wrong? Tell, me, how can you not consider that a limitation? And that's just one thing. And right and wrong? I don't believe in right and wrong. Very subjective, point of view thing. Not everyone is the same. Not everyone can be happy and fulfilled by what Christianity has to offer. I'm sure it does help some people; that's their choice, and I'm glad for them. When I consider the idea of God, I don't think he'd really mind how we try to find him. Christianity would be a way for some, Islam for others, Buddism, Tantra, or Shamanism or Zoroasm or whatever religion or phsolophy for others. But I don't believe in God So I just severly disagree with the 'our way is the only happy way thing' Well, that makes Christianity an arrogant kind of faith in my eyes if I'd just easily judge, but yeah, I do understand what you mean. if you think all religions are good, you're most likely Pagan I do really like the non-converting thing. I was approached by a Christian just after the death of a friend of mine (car accident) when I was uhm..very depressed. I couldn't really apreicate that. I didn't convert of course ( it would be kind of weird if I suddenly lost my rational apraoch because of an emotion) but I did have the slight urge to rid the earth of another human being It was like he'd just been waiting for me to have a bad time, like a vulture sitting beside a dying deer. So I can really apreicate youtr much more mature view on things Lol, you are completely right; the JW are different. The simple fact that the religion is mainly based on fear and The End of the World, plus the constant..indoctrination or brainwashing of the members, whatever you want to call it, I think that's weird even for a form of Christianity, lol xD Not that they're bad people. In fact, they're mostly very very nice. But yeah, that's another story. No, they only use the Bible. They have their own pubiscations of course, but those are just books and books full of interpretation of Bible verses. Yes, they think they have to save people, but I have to point out many other fundmentalist CHristians do too, since there are verses on it in the Bible. I haven't sen the movie But yes, I definitely agree with you on the Jesus thing. I don't Sorry if I was expressing my opinion on that a bit too strongly, it wasn't meant as a personal attack. On the politics thing: Oh? Sorry, I mixed laws. I thought it was the same in the US, apparently not. As far as I know, religion isn't accepted in politics in my country, and I guess I heard it so many times I thought it was the same in the US xD My bad (though our Queen is protestant, she doesn't have any real power; she's our country's mascot. We only know she's protestant because it's the tradition of the Royal Family. But I think princess Maxima is catholic? Not sure, whatever ) Ok, another thing that bothers me about Christianity is a far more personal thing; the lack of respect for the physical. For example; sex is seen as a sin, except when in marriage, and even then, it's still just regarded as a way of having fun and producing more humans. Well, I'm not religious, but even I experience sex as something spiritual; it's as close as I get to feeling 'one with life' or god or whatever you want to call it. Same for other bodily experiences. Christians generally consider them to be either wrong or distracting. I'm a very physical/emotional person, and I find it utterly disturbing how few Christians seem to really feel how spiritual 'earthly' things are. They seem to think every non-physical experience is better, higher, purer. Oh, the Christian heaven sounds like hell to me. To stare at God all day but never just kiss someone or swim in the sea...awful. I don't really get the fascination with heaven either
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Post by Lady Dark Moon on Aug 25, 2008 20:46:05 GMT -5
Firstly I will say that I have been keeping up with this discussion the entire time. All of your comments are valid and enjoyable to read. I'm agnostic/atheist depending on my mood, but I generally have nothing against Christianity. The concept of religion is so deeply ingrained in human nature that society can't function without it.
One question.
About this thing called free will. From what I've gathered, Christians believe that people come to God of their own free will. But imagine this. You're a kid growing up in India. Your parents are Hindu. Your friends are Hindu. Are you going to randomly start following a Christian God? What if you've never heard of God? Well then, that condemns two thirds of the world's population to hell, doesn't it? Nearly all Christians I know were RAISED and BRED by their parents to be Christian. They were lucky enough to be born in a Christian nation. But what about the other billions of people who aren't? Circumstances and genetics. What is free will then, if not something that's decided before you're even born?
I've asked that question a dozen times to as many Christians and have never received a satisfactory answer.
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Post by ladytera on Aug 29, 2008 6:58:41 GMT -5
More than you could possibly know.
One of my dearest friends, and one of the people I have the most fun talking religion with had a very similar early life. He called himself agnostic last time we had a chance to chat. It's not that he doesn't believe in God, he just wants to see him, or some proof thereof.
That doesn't sound shallow at all. The artist who created the pieces were, at least as far as they were concerned, divinely inspired, and it shows in their work. Art of any kind is a phenomenal medium for communicating faith because it transcends language, and uses images, sounds and feelings that translate across any tongue. You don't have to speak Italian to look at the works of Michaelangelo and be moved. It is also great because many of the concepts of Chrsitianity defy description in words, and art offers a great way to grasp those concepts.
This comment seems to be coming up a lot, so I'm going to address it when I do the next post to get to all the other great comments that came after this one.
You cannot teach the New Testament without the old. The New Testament is the new convenant between God and his people. You cannot teach the importance of a new covenant without an understanding of what it replaced. Aside from that, the New Testament was filled with prophecy and foretelling of the coming of the Christ. How could you point to this man as the Messiah without the proof so many seek that he fullfilled the promises made by God in the Old Testament?
Okay, that made me chuckle a little too. The concept of Hell isn't supposed to be liked. Negative conseequences are supposed to be unfavorable. What the church does is lay out the choice that God gave them, as they see it, but still the decision is always up to the individual. Let me pose a couple questions to perhaps shed a different light on this. If you chose to steal something, knowing that it doesn't belong to you and the if you are caught you will go to jail, is it wrong that you then wind up in jail for theft? If your neighbor is driving you nuts, and you one day decide to kill him, knowing that it is not acceptable to do so, and you will be thrown in jail if you do it, is it wrong that you then go to jail? Is that blackmail? It's really not, it is simply the reality that all choice has consquences to it.
While individuals may find it distressing to have their faith questioned, and there have been many unfortunate times in history when the church was run by small scared men, God does not discourage questioning. Thomas in the New Testament is a really good example of this. While all the other disciples were losing their minds, raving about how Christ had arisen as foretold, Thomas said, hey, wait a minute, I need to see it first. And Jesus rewarded the question not with hell and brimstone, but by coming to answer his questions. God never asked us to follow unquestioningly, how on earth would we ever come to know him without asking questions, without poking and prodding for the answers we seek by our very nature. God does not want automatons, he wants a family, that is based in love, trust, and grace, you can't get those things without coming to know eachother, and you can't get to know God without questions.
The world is made up of imperfect people, and you will find in any group strengths and weaknesses among its members. That isn't a function so much of Christianity, but of humanity, and will be true until we all turn to dust.
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Post by ladytera on Aug 29, 2008 7:16:28 GMT -5
I won't argue too much more on this point, because quite honestly, and not to sound old ladyish and condescending, this is kind of one of those things that is hard to convince someone of until they've had a long time to challenge their own beliefs. One point though. By your logic in this statement about the golden rule, murder, rape, etc. aren't actually wrong, most people just agree that they are wrong because they wouldn't want them done to themselves. By extension, that means that people like Geoffry Dahmer, Hannible Lecter, the various child molesters and predators out there should not be punished for the crimes they have commited, because in their mind and their set of rules, the things they did were not wrong. As for the Golden Rule that we all learn as children, and many of us base a lot of our decisions on, comes from the Bible. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Agreed. I do think you can gain wisdom, but you don't stop learning until death. It is actually usually the loss of faith that causes the destruction of civilizations, when it's the result of religious issues. Please, by all means, question away. God knows I certainly did along the way. And I'm not sorry I had to go through that. I learned a lot, and know that someday, something that happened through all that will have a purpose somewhere down the line, if it hasn't already. It takes an awful lot of strength to abide in the love of an entity that you cannot see, and trust to faith that all is right when it doesn't much seem that way. However, I'll get to that in another post as well. To your other point, religion, contrary to Marx, is not an opiate. True faith takes a lot of exploration, self-examination, and can quite honestly make you pretty miserable at times. And Christianity is to me at least, a lot more than a man up in the sky looking down on me for his amusement. Having tried both spiritual and pharmaceutical assistance for depression, I have to say the spirituality wins hands down.
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Post by ladytera on Aug 29, 2008 7:36:05 GMT -5
Aerlinn, yours is going to take some time, so I'll have to get to it later this weekend. Glad you could join us, and are enjoying the conversation so far. You can't get a satisfactory answer because there really isn't one. Not because there isn't one at all, but because we aren't God, and we don't know the answer. The God I know will not condem billions of his children to death because they have never heard his name. How that squares with the whole Revelations thing, I'm not really sure. I think this question actually bothers a lot of Christians, and that is what drives a lot of the very silly things they do, and sometimes the cruel things they do, in an effort to convert the "heathens". What I do know is that God said we are all his children. He didn't say only the folks born in Isreal were his children, he didn't say only the folks born in Europe or the US were his children, he said each and everyone of us born to the earth was known to him before we were born, and we are all his children. So I guess you've asked another Christian whose only answer to the question of where you were born is that I myself do not know, but I very much trust that God does. Which probably isn't particularly satisfactory. Drat, I almost did it again.
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Post by Lady Dark Moon on Aug 29, 2008 16:29:08 GMT -5
Ah, okay. Thanks for replying nevertheless. Okay, that made me chuckle a little too. The concept of Hell isn't supposed to be liked. Negative conseequences are supposed to be unfavorable. What the church does is lay out the choice that God gave them, as they see it, but still the decision is always up to the individual. Let me pose a couple questions to perhaps shed a different light on this. If you chose to steal something, knowing that it doesn't belong to you and the if you are caught you will go to jail, is it wrong that you then wind up in jail for theft? If your neighbor is driving you nuts, and you one day decide to kill him, knowing that it is not acceptable to do so, and you will be thrown in jail if you do it, is it wrong that you then go to jail? Is that blackmail? It's really not, it is simply the reality that all choice has consquences to it. I have to disagree on this. Faith and breaking the law are two different matters entirely. If you choose to steal something, you're harming another individual. You're robbing them of their toil. Same goes for killing. You're taking someone else's life. According to the Golden Rule ('do unto others' rule from the Bible), regardless of what your moral standards are, that is depriving someone else of joy. In rational terms, punishments for those crimes are necessary because without them, civilization would cease to exist. Anarchy. Primal chaos. The way I see it, faith is different. Atheists aren't depriving anyone of anything by choosing not to believe in God. I consider myself a moral person by the standards of our society. Atheists/non-Christians don't go around stealing/killing any more than Christians do. So why should they deserve to go to hell, when they haven't done anything more harmful than make a mental choice? Why is this punishment necessary when God claims to love everyone? True love is unconditional, without fear of consequences. Many Christians (ahem, MOST Christians I know and have read about) are motivated in their faith by fear of death. Fear of death. If you don't submit, you spend eternity in hell. It sounds like psychological manipulation to me. If a god(s) exists, I want to love him/her/it for love itself, not for fear of what will happen if I choose not to love.
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Post by keyodie on Aug 30, 2008 22:17:38 GMT -5
I won't argue too much more on this point, because quite honestly, and not to sound old ladyish and condescending, this is kind of one of those things that is hard to convince someone of until they've had a long time to challenge their own beliefs. One point though. By your logic in this statement about the golden rule, murder, rape, etc. aren't actually wrong, most people just agree that they are wrong because they wouldn't want them done to themselves. By extension, that means that people like Geoffry Dahmer, Hannible Lecter, the various child molesters and predators out there should not be punished for the crimes they have commited, because in their mind and their set of rules, the things they did were not wrong. As for the Golden Rule that we all learn as children, and many of us base a lot of our decisions on, comes from the Bible. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." I have trouble expressing myself, I apologize. Let me clarify. When I say right and wrong is an individual's perceptions, I don't mean the actual "right and wrong" that many people believe in. I'll go as far as to say that a universal "right and wrong" doesn't exist. However, I still wouldn't agree with all those people being unpunished. They broke the law, and for that reason they should deal with the consequences. Like LDM said, without these laws there would be anarchy, so following them should be necessary. Laws are there to try and prevent someone from harming another person (i.e. murder). People have been creating laws and governing people since the beginning of history... it's just something that has to be done. Don't get me wrong, that's not the only reason I think they should be locked up. I think they're evil, psychologically screwed people. However, that's not the point of laws. Laws prevent damage, accidents, chaos, etc. and that is why they are important. Metaphor time! Why? Because I want to. Let's say that I have a container filled with grapes, and there is one little grape in there that looks green, gooey, and disgusting. It isn't that little grape's fault that it's ugly, but I'm not going to keep it in there just because it isn't at fault. Why? Because that little grape is going to stop the other grapes from being bought and fulfilling their life's purpose by being eaten. It is actually usually the loss of faith that causes the destruction of civilizations, when it's the result of religious issues. Yes, it is the loss of faith. But that loss of faith is caused by the gradual change of opinions, beliefs and morals among the younger generation. This gradual change occurs everywhere and all the time. (For example, younger generations are generally more accepting of different races/religions/sexualities than older generations. Or, in order to not sound agist if that is a word, younger generations are generally more accepting of cuss words than older generations.) And when this change occurs, so does conflict. And conflict, again, is what causes the destruction of civilizations. It could go both ways. You could say lack of religion caused conflict, or the presence of religion caused conflict. Please, by all means, question away. God knows I certainly did along the way. And I'm not sorry I had to go through that. I learned a lot, and know that someday, something that happened through all that will have a purpose somewhere down the line, if it hasn't already. Yup, good and bad comes out of everything. Couldn't agree more. Basically, I think we humans are capable of many things, even if we don't realize it. Our brain can make us believe anything. I've had an anxiety attack, and at that time I was absolutely sure that I was going to die. Bipolar people, when they're at their highs, will believe that they can fly. We all go through highs, lows, and in-betweens. We do things subconsciously, think subconsciously. It could be that you wanted to get out of the situation so badly, knowing what you were supposed to do, that you didn't even have to think to pick up that phone. People do all kinds of things in response to their subconscious. The brain/the mind is complicated. I think it's great that these unbelievable, great miracles happen to us, but out of the millions of situations we encounter throughout our life, isn't it only logical that at least once, everything will come together at the right time and right place to produce miraculous results? It takes an awful lot of strength to abide in the love of an entity that you cannot see, and trust to faith that all is right when it doesn't much seem that way. However, I'll get to that in another post as well. To your other point, religion, contrary to Marx, is not an opiate. True faith takes a lot of exploration, self-examination, and can quite honestly make you pretty miserable at times. And Christianity is to me at least, a lot more than a man up in the sky looking down on me for his amusement. Having tried both spiritual and pharmaceutical assistance for depression, I have to say the spirituality wins hands down. That, I cannot disagree with. But it's hard both ways. It's hard to deal with the fact that you might not be as significant as you would like to be, that you don't know where you're going after you die. But like you said, it's also hard to keep your faith and believe in something without evidence. However, the things that you mentioned (exploration, self-examination, etc.) are not only experienced by religious people, they are experienced by most people in this world. Whether you are religious or non-religious, you will have to deal with the hardships of life, the quest to find your true identity, and the testing and questioning of your beliefs no matter what they are. The point I was trying to make, though, is that it's much easier to be happy when you know that your life has significance and you know that God has a plan for you. Life will still be hard, but it will be easier to be happy. I would also like to add... just because you are religious doesn't mean that you are spiritual, and just because you are spiritual doesn't mean that you are religious.
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Post by ladytera on Sept 1, 2008 1:24:10 GMT -5
Ah, okay. Thanks for replying nevertheless. Okay, that made me chuckle a little too. The concept of Hell isn't supposed to be liked. Negative conseequences are supposed to be unfavorable. What the church does is lay out the choice that God gave them, as they see it, but still the decision is always up to the individual. Let me pose a couple questions to perhaps shed a different light on this. If you chose to steal something, knowing that it doesn't belong to you and the if you are caught you will go to jail, is it wrong that you then wind up in jail for theft? If your neighbor is driving you nuts, and you one day decide to kill him, knowing that it is not acceptable to do so, and you will be thrown in jail if you do it, is it wrong that you then go to jail? Is that blackmail? It's really not, it is simply the reality that all choice has consquences to it. I have to disagree on this. Faith and breaking the law are two different matters entirely. If you choose to steal something, you're harming another individual. You're robbing them of their toil. Same goes for killing. You're taking someone else's life. According to the Golden Rule ('do unto others' rule from the Bible), regardless of what your moral standards are, that is depriving someone else of joy. In rational terms, punishments for those crimes are necessary because without them, civilization would cease to exist. Anarchy. Primal chaos. I don't disagree with the premise there, but the questions weren't meant as a slap at those who don't follow Christianity. What I meant to illustrate by posing them is that all choice has consequence. If you go to school, study hard, and put in the work, you will get an A in class. That is a progressive series of choices on the part of the student that has a good consequence as a result. An is just as illustrative of the point as the negative ones above. What I meant was not that those who don't follow Christianity automatically commit evil acts, nor that Christians automatically don't commit evil acts, but that hell, in the Christian faith, is not a threat, it is a consequence of the choice each of us has about whether or not to accept God's love. I'm working on another post that kind of gets more into that. But, for now I have to say the concept of hell that you and others on this forum seem to have been taught is not hell as I understand it. Revelations was pure imagery from a dark time period, and worse it was an interpretation of the visions of a man translated into that imagery. In short, Hell is nothing more or less than an absence of God and all he represents, and he does not consign us to hell, we do by rejecting his presence in our lives. He does not have a choice about that, because he promised us the choice was ours to make, not his. Most Christians I know don't particularly fear death because they know that they are unconditionally loved, and that they will reside permanently in that love once their job here is done. When I think of being afraid of dying, it is not concern for the afterlife that bothers me, but what I may leave undone. Have I taught my kids enough? Do they know that I love them? Have I touched all the lives I was supposed to? Did I accomplish the purpose for which I was put here? And I don't particularly love God because I would be afraid of not loving him. He really doesn't ask us to love him. He asks us to let him love us.
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