|
Post by ladytera on Sept 29, 2008 6:25:08 GMT -5
I guess I'm just going to jump in here for a bit and hope I don't get burned in the process. No flames here (at least not in this thread, except for bdole, and he was properly chastised). That is a lovely description of the indescribable. Simple and profound, and very much the definition of what Christianity is meant to be about. I would say sorry you've been sorely tested, as you may have noticed, from other posts, that seems to be sadly common during the teenage years, but truth is, it is the testing of faith, whether by your own questions or outside forces, that brings understanding. So, congratulations for surviving, with your faith in tact. These days, that's much easier said than done. Well put. Thank you for posting again. Come back and chat some more when the time and thoughts strikes you.
|
|
dark
Student
Woah.
Posts: 16
|
Post by dark on Sept 29, 2008 18:09:24 GMT -5
Wow, big long posts that I tried to read, and nearly died doing so.
Christianity means many things to me. I could have been one myself. My father was raised Catholic, he went to Church for a very long time and attended Catholic school. My mother was raised Roman Catholic, but her mother (whom I idolize) sort of rebelled, something to do with suppression in Ukraine or something like that. My best friend of 12 years is an Anglican, and her father is the pastor of an Anglican church. My community is mostly Mormons and Jehova's Witnesses. (I consider them Christian, whether you do or not. I tend to lump them all together.) I've been to Church several times, I've sat through both Christmas and Easter sermons, and I've attended a few Sunday masses(sp?).
Christianity means to me the undying leap of faith that one takes to believe in God, Jesus, the Apostles, the fact that Mary Magdelene was a prostitute, the fact that a pentacle is a devil worshipping symbol and the upside down cross is demonic.
It means the supression of women for two thousand years, the killing of millions because they were different, the belief that if you do not submit to God, you will burn(live in) Hell for eternity.
It also means the undying faith that one should have when they are a Christian. The absoloute inability to turn away from your God once you have chosen him. The ability to believe in the stuff you can't see, and only read in a book from a few thousand years ago.
Christianity can be a beautiful thing, when the people practicing the good things, acceptance of others, being kind, gracious, humble, and the good qualities that you would wish upon someone. This quote from Ghandi pretty much sums it up: "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
I'll admit, I prayed when I was little. I asked God to save the life of my first rabbit, only to have him die on me the next day. I prayed for him to help me feel better, when my stomach couldn't stop hurting me so badly. I asked him to help my great grandma when she was in the hospital sick and close to death, only to have her pass away fitfully in her sleep.
Perhaps all the times I prayed to him, and nothing happened ruined it for me. I was little and I wanted everything to be perfect for me, my family and my friends. But it always seemed to end up getting worse.
Now as I get older, I see ways in which the followers of God are almost worse than he is. The slaughter, the death and prejudice of millions.
I've become cold in my old age, and the possiblity of just getting down and praying to God seems silly. Or standing and praying, or swimming and praying.
(1. I can never spell Church right, it always comes out chruch. 2. Mary was not a prostitute. 3.The pentacle is not a devil worshipping symbol, it's a Pagan symbol representing the union of man and woman and the 5 elements, later satanized by the Church after they slaughtered the Pagans and ridiculed them for being Pagan. 4. The upside down cross was originally used by Peter when he was crucified becuase he deemed himself not as worth as Jesus so he used and upside down one. Then the Church later demonized it and Satanists used it as one of their symbols.)
(oh, it makes me laugh that Satanists are Satanists, because that means they believe in God... it's just ironic)
|
|
Gil
Apprentice
teh spazzy queen
Posts: 54
|
Post by Gil on Sept 29, 2008 20:53:19 GMT -5
Ahh! This topic is fascinating, and I must say I love you all, with all your articulated thoughts and means of debating/discussing without acting like two-year-olds! *relief* I haven't even gotten through reading the first two pages of this topic, but I intend to over the next few days =] And hopefully, years from now when I've read through the whole thing (lol ), I will be able to post my own thoughts/opinions/questions/ect.
|
|
|
Post by keyodie on Sept 29, 2008 21:21:44 GMT -5
Haha we'll hear from you in a few years then. ;D
But yeah, I agree, everyone has been really mature in this topic (with maybe one exception). I think it's great.
|
|
Gil
Apprentice
teh spazzy queen
Posts: 54
|
Post by Gil on Sept 29, 2008 21:25:33 GMT -5
Haha see you then!
But really, from what I've read so far, everyone has been really mature. I'm a member of another forum that is not soley for debates, but does have a debate section in it, and so many of the members are so...childish! Screaming at each other, calling each other stupid and ignorant...gah it frustrates me so!
|
|
|
Post by Ammy Fae on Sept 30, 2008 16:07:40 GMT -5
I'll have to go back and re-read what I need to answer in regards to my posts, but I have had absolutely nooooooo time to think lately. I'll be pretty absent this month, but I promise I'll make the effort to at least read new posts and reply as soon as I can. [I'm so, so happy this has turned out to be one of the big threads and everyone so far has been cordial and respectful of each other. =P]
|
|
Hravan
Journeyman
Life is a Musical
Posts: 106
|
Post by Hravan on Sept 30, 2008 17:45:42 GMT -5
Larael andladytera, thank you for your answers... they have cleared up some things for me... We never really got told what the Holy Spirit was except that it came into us when we accepted Jesus so it's never really crossed my mind...
As for the Jews getting into Heaven... I have heard some of that before, and I mentioned it to the Alpha course person but I was still told, in no uncertain terms, that the Jews don't go to Heaven because they refuse to accept that Jesus was the son of god.. I don't know... it's all so confusing! Maybe it's a Church of England thing.... although it was just one person who was teaching us and even though there's a structure to the course I think she did inject a lot of her own personal beliefs into it...
|
|
|
Post by misaki on Oct 3, 2008 11:17:50 GMT -5
Aerlinn, No harm no foul, as far as I'm concerned. And you didn't seem attacking particularly, more strongly convicted of your beliefs. As to restrictions and such, true and absolute freedom, in the sense that you mean here, is an illusion. It there were no rules, there could be no order, no civilization. Whether the rules come from religion, government, or the universe in general (i.e. gravity, inertia, etc.), there are an always will be restrictions on our actions of some kind. I have to disagree with this. Absolute freedom is absolutely possible; it just isn't good for a civilization if everyone realizes that. Rules are, in my opinion, nothing but a way of stabilizing a culture, nothing more, nothing less. They aren't universal, and I think it's definitely a good thing they have often been ignored; the more interesting individuals in history were the rule breakers and revolutionist, from Copernicus to Gandhi. ( Well, I'm not sure if Gandhi actually broke rules, but he did not agree with the trad. Indian rules anyway, and rebelled against it. I'm an anarchist. However, this is my personal view. I don't intend to, in any way, promote it; it isn't good for society. I also don't go intentionally breaking rules every day. It just means they aren't of much worth to me personally; I think my own sense of wrong/right, and that of people I consider wise, is more relevant than any rule someone made up sometime. Sure there are the laws of nature, but those aren't really rules; those are part of the world itself. My existence here is based on the fact that they exist. I'm part of those 'laws'. So I don't think they limit my freedom; they give me the freedom to live. That absolutely isn't true for religions. Religion is a personal thing, a choice, and not something a civilization really needs. At it's best, religion is a 'valid' backbone for some rules in a civilization, resulting in more respect for those rules, which results in a more stable civilization. However, comparing religion to the rules required to keep a society stable, that just doesn't make sense. I don't have a religion, and I don't want one; I think rules are something changeable and evolving, not something that lasts for centuries, and that they are absolutely invalid in many cases, because every situation is different; we're human, not robots. A situation is often far too complicated for the simplistic rules that are supposed to protect civilization. I do feel free. And I think it's possible for individuals to be free at least, if not for society. Even if they obey society's rules to avoid ending up in jail; if you realize they're not holy and never-changing, you're free. Because you aren't really bound to those rules, they're break/avoidable at any point in time. ( BTW, on my respect for order ; the fact that I love the ideas of chaos magic is possibly revealing xP )
|
|
|
Post by Pizdin on Oct 3, 2008 22:23:04 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by keyodie on Oct 3, 2008 23:00:45 GMT -5
Pizdin - Could you please explain your thoughts a bit more coherently? What do you mean by your last sentence? It's a bit hard to reply when we don't know what you are speaking of. Welcome to the forum, by the way.
|
|
|
Post by ladytera on Oct 4, 2008 0:55:55 GMT -5
Pizdin, I'd highly recommend strolling through the posts on this thread, some of your frustration, sadness and rage has been touched upon here, and is shared by others in this forum for other reason. In answer to your question, God is merciful not in his stopping of events, but in his grace and love for each of us in the midst of our darkest hour. From what little you're told me of your friend, it seems she understood and appreciated that before she left this life. That is not said to diminish your pain, or your rage. It is only to encourage you to share your thoughts here, so that others might help you see a different point of view, and perhaps offer comfort to a broken heart. We will await whatever thoughts you care to share, on this particular point, or on other aspects of Christianity. Perhaps sharing your background as it pertains to church and God might give us all a better insight.
|
|
|
Post by ladytera on Oct 4, 2008 1:41:50 GMT -5
You could still be, you never know. Interesting background. As to Mormons and JWs, I honestly couldn't say whether they are Christians or not. According to most church doctrines, they aren't. But, then again, according to the Catholic doctrine, Protestants aren't Christians, and according to many Protestants, the Catholics are not only not Christians, they are idolators. So, it's a little hard for me to say to. Interesting perspective. I don't believe the pentacle was originally considered a devil worshipping symbol in the Christian church. I believe it only became considered as such when it was adopted by Satanists as their religious symbol. I think it probably was considered a pagan symbol, to an extent, as are many of the symbols in modern Christianity, as it is used in quite a few magical rituals associated with pagan beliefs. The hell thing we hit on earlier, but I'll go into it again if you have other questions. As to the suppression of women, I've got to say that was as much a function of the societies of the times as it was to do with God, or the teachings of Christ. Christians turn from their God quite frequently. That's usually what leads to so many of the atrocities you note elsewhere. Do you believe in the wind? Can you see it, or can you only see its result? To those who believe in God, any God, it is much the same thing. To clarify, is undying faith a bad or good thing in your eyes? Ghandi wasn't a Christian, and he was very much a pacifist, which Christ really wasn't. So, I guess, before I could answer his claim to liking Christ, but not his followers, and how different they are, I'd have to ask who did he, and by extension, you think Christ was? What was desirable in him that is so unlike his followers, and what was disregarded in his story to make him fit Ghandi's ideal? The idea of the good qualities of some Christians being all fine and dandy, and the rest being this miserable rotten mess, I simply have to say, of course it's that way. Life is not all beauty. It is ugliness, it is sorrow, it is pain, degradation, confusion and squalor. God is the light in that darkness, regardless of if you follow him. And, please don't misunderstand this statement. I am not trying to convert, nor deny any one's right to believe as they will. As a Christian, I have faith that God is everyone's God, as he said he was, and that his light and grace covers all of us, even when we don't seek it. My point is, you cannot have any belief that discounts the realities of life and have it stand up. Christianity acknowledges the failures, and provides the means to endure, improve and flourish despite those inequities. As to Christians being so unlike our Christ, here's the thing. Christ was the perfect man. The only human to ever exist without sin. His followers were told to follow in his footsteps, but they were also told that they would fail to live sinless lives. That was why Christ was crucified. That doesn't mean that we should not strive to be better people each moment than we were the moment before, it simply acknowledges that we will fall, we will fail, and tells us we should still get back up and keep trying. God always answers prayers, sometimes he says yes, sometimes he says no, and sometimes he says wait, and sometimes we will not understand the things that did not turn out the way we wanted until we have grown older and look back to see a different picture than the one we are in now. But, he always answers, we just don't always hear him, or like what he has to say. Humans are humans, and there are those with evil intent in every group, be they Christian, Muslim, Jews, Agnostics, Atheist or anything else. Communism has killed millions over the years, tribalism has killed millions, Muslims have slaughtered and enslaved millions. When conquest is the desire, those in power can find an excuse to twist the beliefs of those they seek to lead. It is up to us as individuals, inside and outside those beliefs to stand up and say no, whatever cover those evil intents wrap themselves in. You made me laugh, and please don't be offended, many of you make me smile and shake my head. You are yet young, in the midst of the early trials of your life, and there will be warmth down the line, and probably colder days still. As to the possibility of getting down and praying to God, or standing, or swimming, mostly I do it while I'm driving. It gives me someone to talk to, and a quiet place to listen for the answers I seek. But why does it seem silly to you? Why do you think Mary Magdalene was not a prostitute? And some other rogues we might mention here, Noah was a drunk, and David was a murderer. The pentacle is a Satanic symbol because it is used as such by the Satanic Church, not because Catholics declared it so. It was also a pagan symbol. I must admit that my knowledge of the purging and absorption of paganism in Europe is limited. I read a lot about it when I was a kid, but that was twenty years ago, and my memory on it is sketchy at best. But, I've already conceded elsewhere that the Church did bad things in its history, most notably when it tried to institute itself as the political force in Europe instead of sticking to matters of faith. I don't know a lot about this, other than I've read about that story of Peter, and as far as I know it is correct. But, you state here yourself that the Satanists adopted it as a symbol in their church, therefore, by definition it is a Satanic symbol now. That one kind of makes me chuckle too, and it is definitely ironic. What I find truly weird about the whole Satanist deal is that they worship the dude that got tossed out of heaven, and as I understand it got seriously trounced in the process, and they still expect to win in the final battle. I have to admit, here too, my knowledge is somewhat limited. But I've always found the idea of worshiping evil to be a little sad and pathetic, more than anything else.
|
|
|
Post by ladytera on Oct 4, 2008 1:46:44 GMT -5
Larael andladytera, thank you for your answers... they have cleared up some things for me... We never really got told what the Holy Spirit was except that it came into us when we accepted Jesus so it's never really crossed my mind... In all honesty, I never gave much thought, or was taught much, about the Holy Spirit being a separate entity either until I got a lot older, and started looking into it more myself. People, being what they are, will always inject their own beliefs and interpretations, me included. I doubt it's strictly a Church of England thing. If I remember correctly, the Jehovah's Witnesses believe that only 144,000 will be allowed into heaven, regardless of if you accept Christ. Some odd things come out of different people's interpretations of various verses in the Bible. When in doubt, it's always best to go back and read through it yourself, and make your own interpretations and judgments. It makes a lot more sense that way, and that was really how the Bible was meant to be used.
|
|
|
Post by ladytera on Oct 4, 2008 1:51:29 GMT -5
Ahh! This topic is fascinating, and I must say I love you all, with all your articulated thoughts and means of debating/discussing without acting like two-year-olds! *relief* I haven't even gotten through reading the first two pages of this topic, but I intend to over the next few days =] And hopefully, years from now when I've read through the whole thing (lol ), I will be able to post my own thoughts/opinions/questions/ect. Gil, I'm glad you're enjoying it. I look forward to reading your thoughts when you get to them, and feel free to chime in whenever it strikes you, you don't have to wait until you're gotten through all of it. Catch you later.
|
|
|
Post by Pizdin on Oct 4, 2008 14:45:50 GMT -5
keyodie- My ex-girlfriend died last year after i had prayed to God for 14 1/2 years of my life and for him to take her was to me not merciful. She was beautiful and only sixteen. so Christianity to me is just something made up by people to try to give people hope. I no longer feel that kind of hope. I have to believe that there is a better place like heaven. So I know that she is some where safe.
|
|
|
Post by ladytera on Oct 4, 2008 21:24:36 GMT -5
Without hope, without God (in some form), how could there be a better place. Without hope, this life is all there is, and we cease when it ends.
|
|
dark
Student
Woah.
Posts: 16
|
Post by dark on Oct 4, 2008 23:15:43 GMT -5
Thanks for taking the time to respond btw, I really like it when people take my stuff apart and examine in closer. It's really useful. (That was not sarcasm)
No, unless there's a huge shift in my psyche, I don't think I'll ever become a Christian. I just tend to lump everyone together, if theyhave a guy in the sky names God, and a son named Jesus, you're lumped with the Christians. Those of the Jewish faith have their own category.
And I find it completely unforgivable. The suppression of anyone because they were suspected of having dealings with the devil, is just, well, stupid in my opinion. If God is someone who suppresses women, because Eve bit the apple of knowledge, or because he's a chauvinistic bastard, I would have a hard time following him or his son.
I think that if you are a true Christian, you may doubt your God, or his teachings, but never truly turn away from him. I find that to be a sin, or something equal to that. Of course I believe in the wind, and I can see it. I can see it in the paintings of great artists, in the waves on the water, or the wind in my hair. I do not believe that those are the result of wind that is the wind. Of course, when I was little, I believed in an imaginary friend, that no one else could see. That could also be compared to Christians seeing God, yes? I think undying faith could be both good and bad. I don't know if I myself have undying faith in anything, but I know others do. It's double sided, that's for sure.
But some people are so unlike your "perfect man", that it disgusts me, and Ghandi. Everyday people should strive to be the best they can be, and those who you should think should be doing their hardest to idolize Jesus, don't.
Well, in my case, God just made a few people kick the bucket a bit early then hey?
Very well said, couldn’t have said it better myself. Be the change you want to see in the world.
Talking to the invisible, or in my opinion unreal is just silly. I talked to my aforementioned imaginary friend, the only way he ever responded was if I made up the words in his mouth myself.
And it should remain removed from any actions taken by a state, senate, house of parliament or otherwise. And actually, they use the upside down pentacle as their symbol, another example of them using flipped images. A pagan/wiccan pentacle only has one point pointing up, while a demonic or otherwise pentacle has two points pointing up.
Well, NOW it is.
That made me laugh, no doubt about it.
|
|
|
Post by Lady Dark Moon on Oct 5, 2008 7:47:56 GMT -5
Aerlinn, your views on rules and religion being the backbone of civilization and little more... perfect. I couldn't have said it better. Without hope, without God (in some form), how could there be a better place. Without hope, this life is all there is, and we cease when it ends. What's wrong with that? I admit I'm young and my views may change when I'm older/wearier, but I've thought about this extensively. The prospect of a void at the end of life doesn't bother me. It simply makes me enjoy life all the more - to hold life as sacred and beautiful and worth living. You could say that I don't worship God, but I worship life itself. We learned about Christianity in world history class the other day. The general gist, according to the textbook and my Catholic teacher, was this: People believed in God because they were afraid of going to hell. Later, we discussed Christianity around the lunch table. The general consensus: "I go to Church because I don't want to go to hell." These are high schoolers. I wanted to bang my head against a wall. So I suppose the point I'm trying to make is YES there are people (blessed) who love God for God, and YES God does manage to turn some lives around. But to the general population, Christianity comes across first and foremost as a choice between lala heaven and fiery hell. That interpretation to me sounds like no accident. It reeks of human intervention - like some priest thousands of years ago was brainstorming ways to gain more followers. You don't have to dignify this with a reply because I know we've already hit the blackmail topic, but I just wanted to make a point. And rant.
|
|
|
Post by keyodie on Oct 5, 2008 10:54:45 GMT -5
Yeah, I agree with LDM 100% here. Who cares if this is all there is? That just gives us more reason to enjoy life more, enjoy what we have and make the best of it. It's not like we're BAM! gone into oblivion when we die. We live on in the memories of our loved ones, we live on in books we've written or art we've created.
|
|
|
Post by keyodie on Oct 5, 2008 11:10:59 GMT -5
Ladytera, you made a comment a while ago about how the fall of the Roman Empire was due to the loss of religious belief. When I replied, I didn't know anything about the subject at the time, so I'm going to try again. xD
I'm not an expert, but I don't think it was really the blurring of right and wrong. It was more about the loss of patriotism, the loss of loyalty to Rome. There were many problems with the empire. A lot of it was due to the emperors who couldn't deal with an empire so big and its ever-growing problems. They had problems with hostile tribes outside the empire as well as pirates, hurting trade severely. They raised taxes out of desperation because they started to run out of natural resources. They suffered inflation. Farmland became infertile because the land had been so overworked and also because of the wars that occurred. This is what led to the disloyalty/indifference of the citizens and soldiers.
And they weren't refusing to believe in Christianity. Even after Theodosius made Christianity the official religion, Rome still fell. There were millions and millions of Christians in Rome.
There were many factors when it comes to the fall of Rome, and I'm not going to name all of them here (if you want me to, let me know). Sure, religion is a part of it, but not the sole reason nor a major reason for its decline.
|
|