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Post by ladytera on Sept 1, 2008 1:46:22 GMT -5
I think we'll agree to disagree on those first few paragraphs because I hate to beat a dead horse and I know I'll start repeating myself. In a universe without a God, the odds are that actually there would never be that precisely right combination of events that would create a miracle. Take human life for instance. There are millions of things that can go wrong with these bodies we call home while we're here. Check out a medical journal sometime, it's enough to give you another anxiety attack, and I've dealt with those too, I hope yours don't keep coming back, they suck. Back to my point, odds are, life above the amoeba level really shouldn't be able to exist because the odds against all those cells, and all that DNA, coming together in just the right way to make a functional life are pretty high against. And yet, we have life aplenty here on this rock. But, even allowing that the odds might work in the other direction, and at least once in a lifetime everything would come together to work just right, I still feel the hand of God in my life. Why? Because, it wasn't just that one time. That one time was a combination of events in my life that had been coming together to happen just right over a period of years, probably more than a decade. It was the ending of a cycle of self destruction that started when I was a teenager, and continued into adulthood, and should have killed me dozens of times over the course of it all. And yet, here I stand (or sit). But, how about a little less dramatic. A few years ago, I needed a car. My vehicle was dying, my paycheck was not enough to cover a payment or the continually mounting repairs. And I couldn't be without a vehicle for numerous reasons. I prayed, I cried, I said God, winning the lottery would be awesome, but if you could see your way clear to showing me how to get a vehicle that'll hold everyone, that'd be great. And that is almost word for word. I went to church the next Sunday, which I hadn't been doing as regularly, and don't do much at all now, and I ran into a friend who had been on our mission trip to Louisiana after Katrina with me. He turned to me and said, "Are you still looking for a vehicle?" I couldn't remember having mentioned looking for a vehicle to him. He said, "We just got a new SUV, and we need to get rid of our old van. It has something wrong with the brakes, and the transmission does something weird now and then, butif you want it, you can have it." Needless to say, I started bawling my eyes out, which he took for the yes it was, and that van lasted me the two years it took for me to be able to afford a newer vehicle, and gave me the down payment I needed. How much more direct of an answer can you get than that? There are any number of other little things in my life that happen like that almost daily. They almost always require that I am doing something, looking for something, or open to something, but they always come exactly when I need them. I cannot help but see a larger purpose and presence behind that when I look at all the evidence of it over the course of my entire life. That about sums it up. It's human nature to explore. Because I do believe in God, I also believe it is human nature to be in relationship with him, and I think a lot of the unhappiness in people's lives comes from a tendency, for whatever reason, and this includes Christians, to fight that relationship. Spot on. Religion and spirituality are two different things. Faith however, of any kind, does require spirituality, even if religion does not.
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Post by ladytera on Sept 1, 2008 3:46:53 GMT -5
Okay, Aerlinn, I finally have some time to put in the effort the length and depth of this post deserves. I'm sure you will be pleased with this, as I know you have been waiting with baited breath for the Ancient wisdom to be dispensed from my awesome and very ancient brain. *LT slaps self* Sorry, it's late, and I'm feeling a little silly. Must be the fumes from the cleaning fluids I've been playing with for the last two hours. *LT rubs hands* *cough* Debating is lots of fun. We should get along well. Some of this I'm going to skim because it's not something I particularly disagree with you on. So, forgive me, and if I miss anything important, please feel free to remind me. Couple points here. First, the Crusades were a response to the Muslim nations raping and pillaging their way across Europe in the name of building a Caliphate under the rule of Allah. While the Christians in that instance eventually went too far, and became little better than their adversaries, it began with the intention of sending the Musselmen or Moores back where they came from and stopping them from killing the innocent population in Europe. As with most wars, and other human endeavors, it got out of hand. Funny thing is, when it did, the Crusaders started losing. The problem with Middle Ages Christianity stemmed mostly from their attempt, as the foundation of Islam also did, to use religion as their method of governement. This has always, and will always, lead to disaster and misery. People just aren't that smart. I don't know much about the Dalai Lama, but I do get your point. Pope Pius during WWII is not much different from our current leaders calling for acceptance and understanding of the Iranians, Hamas, and Hezbollah who have vowed to kill us. Hitler built schools, provided good works, yada, yada, yada, and until it comes to bite you in the ass, most sane people cannot comprehend the evil insanity that drives people like that, or believe that any human being would do the things they claim to want to do. I looked for the Bible passage you were talking about, but unfortunately I can't quite remember the whole thing, so I can't find it. But what it talks about is the fact that a diseased limb must be removed and cast aside so that a healthy tree may bear fruit, instead of being choked and corrupted by the diseased limb. As you noted there have been many periods of disease in the history of Christianity, as in any other major religion, and those diseased limbs, generally megalomaniacs who use religion to cow people into doing very bad things, are always removed one way or another, and the faith continues to grow. What you have to remember is that just because people with evil intent mask their actions with the Will of God, doesn't mean that God condones it. The Bible says also that even the Devil can quote scripture. That's where a personal relationship with God, and each individuals intelligence, goodness, and exploration comes in. For every evil that crops up within Christianity, there is a good that rises up to oppose it. You cannot force someone to accept Christianity. By its very definition it has to be a choice made of your own free will, without duress, or it is meaningless to you. When people become dependent upon the social side of a church, that too is by their choice. Most religious charities, while they may preach at you some, do not at all require an advocation of faith in order to get help. The intent rather is to show God's love through unselfish sharing of resources and support, and then leave the rest in God's hands. Because, frankly, who else can really convert people but God? I addressed the hell thing in a different post. I kind of hit on this a little earlier too. While gay marriage is forbidden in most churches, and it is considered wrong, that doesn't necessarily condemn a person to hell. Some thoughts on homosexuality. In nature, when animals practice homosexuality, it is a deviation. The primary purpose in nature is procreation, and this cannot be acheived in that circumstance. So, it usually results from over population, or a need for one animal to dominate the others in its sphere. At our base, we are still animals, and have the same basic impulses. So, scientifically speaking, most people would consider homosexuality as an aberattion rather than the norm. And Christianity doesn't teach that a man loving a man is wrong, just that sex between the two is. I don't consider that a limitation because I believe that each Christian makes their peace with God individually. Marriage is considered a sacrement, and was specifically stated to be between a man and a woman. It has a purpose, to bond two people together, allow them to strengthen each other, and provide stability for a family and to make that relationship something important and lasting. What a gay person chooses to do, whether they choose to make a long term committment to one another, and whether they choose to have sex is none of my business, nor the churches. But it is also not the right of a gay person to require that the church recognize gay marriage, as they would see it as a degredation of a sacred union. I am sorry to hear about that. And sorry that the approach struck you so wrong. It's an unfortunate side effect of some religions that their followers, rather than try to share their own experiences, and help people by example, preach at folks instead. I've always found that tremendously annoying myself. There was a lady at one of my jobs that preached at me all the damn time, and I just wanted to beat the crap out of her. I was already a Christian, and her pomposity, not to mention the fact that she kept jabbering while I was trying to talk to clients on the phone, drove me batty. It finally got to the point where I said something to my boss. For two days after all I heard was rumbling about harrassment, and all I could think was that she was the one spouting religion in the workplace to the point where it interfered with my job, and I couldn't just walk away. Ah well, such is life. You should check it out if you get a chance. Ben Afleck and Matt Damon are angels, Chris Rock is some kind of celestial being, Silent Bob and his side kick are the protectors, the guy who played the psycho crazy bad guy leader in the first Die Hard movie plays a Seraph (Ammy would know his name), and Alanis Morriset is God. Oh, and George Carlin is the priest. Not at all. I can't use the smilies as easily in my word processor. I was kidding around a bit. No problem. I don't know the laws over there. I forgot you weren't from these parts when I was originally writing that. Okay, you made me laugh again. The entire Book of Solomon or Songs of Solomon, whatever you call it, was all about his very carnal attraction to his wife. Any Christian who doesn't understand the spirituality of sex is seriously missing something in their lives. There is a reason sex is reserved for marriage. As you noted, its a pretty powerful experience. When done in the context of marriage, to the right person, it is designed to creat a greater depth of understanding and love between the couple. It's a physical expression of the whole two becoming one flesh dealio in the wedding vows. The procreation and fun part are just the animal instinct part of it I mentioned earlier, and sort of icing on the cake for us humans. Sex between a married couple is also the closest physical expression of God's infinite and passionate love we can get. The reason its seen a sin outside of marriage is because it's not foundation material. I described it to Ammy like this, sex is spackle. You have to build the house, of a life long relationship first, before you use the spackle to fill in the cracks that inevitably pop up in the walls as the house settles and ages. If you try to use the spackle first you end up being tempted to use the spackle as foundation, and it crumbles as the relationship settles and ages, eventually causing the roof to fall on you head. Nobody likes it when the roof falls on their head.
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Post by keyodie on Sept 1, 2008 20:43:19 GMT -5
I think we'll agree to disagree on those first few paragraphs because I hate to beat a dead horse and I know I'll start repeating myself. Sounds good to me. =) In a universe without a God, the odds are that actually there would never be that precisely right combination of events that would create a miracle. And how do you know what a universe without God would be like, if you believe there is one? Or are you talking about the different perceptions of the universe, with and without god? Take human life for instance. There are millions of things that can go wrong with these bodies we call home while we're here. Check out a medical journal sometime, it's enough to give you another anxiety attack, and I've dealt with those too, I hope yours don't keep coming back, they suck. Back to my point, odds are, life above the amoeba level really shouldn't be able to exist because the odds against all those cells, and all that DNA, coming together in just the right way to make a functional life are pretty high against. And yet, we have life aplenty here on this rock. Well, see, I think of human life in a very different way. I'm a believer in evolution, and this Earth has been here for a very long time. I guess I'll make another metaphor. Think about a kindergartner learning what 1 + 1 is. Then, think about all those people that take calculus in high school. It seems pretty miraculous that anyone could not know what 1 + 1 is at one point in their life and then solve extremely complicated one page problems at another. Why is this possible? Because over time, this kid learns a little more each day, becoming more advanced in that particular subject. In this way, I think life may have started out extremely simple. Using natural selection, the simplest of life processes were created and perfected. Over the course of 6 billion years, a lot can happen. Processes upon processes are built up on top of the simple ones and eventually, a very complex being can exist. I don't know this for sure, but I do believe something like this could have been very possible. Even with this opinion, I still think it is absolutely unbelievable and amazing what our cells do every day. But that is why I think nature is beautiful. It was able to develop into something so much more than a tiny amoeba. Also, many things are far from perfect. People are born with or develop mental illnesses, people can become infertile, we have random vestigial structures. Yes, there are many many things that can go wrong with our bodies, and these things do happen, just not most of the time. This is because of natural selection, allowing the fittest to survive and reproduce. But, even allowing that the odds might work in the other direction, and at least once in a lifetime everything would come together to work just right, I still feel the hand of God in my life. Why? Because, it wasn't just that one time. That one time was a combination of events in my life that had been coming together to happen just right over a period of years, probably more than a decade. It was the ending of a cycle of self destruction that started when I was a teenager, and continued into adulthood, and should have killed me dozens of times over the course of it all. And yet, here I stand (or sit). But, how about a little less dramatic. A few years ago, I needed a car. My vehicle was dying, my paycheck was not enough to cover a payment or the continually mounting repairs. And I couldn't be without a vehicle for numerous reasons. I prayed, I cried, I said God, winning the lottery would be awesome, but if you could see your way clear to showing me how to get a vehicle that'll hold everyone, that'd be great. And that is almost word for word. I went to church the next Sunday, which I hadn't been doing as regularly, and don't do much at all now, and I ran into a friend who had been on our mission trip to Louisiana after Katrina with me. He turned to me and said, "Are you still looking for a vehicle?" I couldn't remember having mentioned looking for a vehicle to him. He said, "We just got a new SUV, and we need to get rid of our old van. It has something wrong with the brakes, and the transmission does something weird now and then, butif you want it, you can have it." Needless to say, I started bawling my eyes out, which he took for the yes it was, and that van lasted me the two years it took for me to be able to afford a newer vehicle, and gave me the down payment I needed. How much more direct of an answer can you get than that? There are any number of other little things in my life that happen like that almost daily. They almost always require that I am doing something, looking for something, or open to something, but they always come exactly when I need them. I cannot help but see a larger purpose and presence behind that when I look at all the evidence of it over the course of my entire life. So are you saying that if you believe in God, he will let you experience these wonderful conveniences, events, and situations, but not if you are a non-believer? I'm just assuming you believe that in a world without God, miracles cannot happen. If I'm wrong, let me know. Yes, good things happen to people every day, but so do bad things. That's how the world is. There's going to be a low and high point of every hour, every day, every year, and every life. I am grateful for those good things, but anyone can blame the good and bad on anything they want. As for me, I think it's just logical that these things occur. Every day, we interact with people of different cultures, different backgrounds, and different experiences. Every day is a new adventure, a new experience. Of course there will be both pleasant and unpleasant moments in our lives, but I don't believe that one is evil and one is god granted. It's not all black and white, there is some white in the black and some black in the white (ying yang). Those pleasant and unpleasant experiences are different, that's all these is to it. After all, good and bad comes out of everything. I'll just quote a paragraph from the book "Beautiful Lies" by Lisa Unger that might add a little to what I'm trying to say about life in general: " Quidam, the stranger, the anonymous passerby. The man walking in the rain on the street after midnight. The sound of a violin through your apartment wall. The homeless man asking for change on the steps of a church. The old woman next to you on the bus. Disconnected from your life but joined to you by a moment in time. All the choices and events of his life and the choices and events of yours have led you to be in the exact same place at the exact same time. Think about it." And I'm sure other people have experienced situations such as yours that are just as good, it's just up to the person who experienced it to interpret it as something from God, something to be grateful for, or just another lucky occurrence. That about sums it up. It's human nature to explore. Because I do believe in God, I also believe it is human nature to be in relationship with him, and I think a lot of the unhappiness in people's lives comes from a tendency, for whatever reason, and this includes Christians, to fight that relationship. Well non-religious people don't usually fight their relationship with God, they just don't acknowledge it. Either that or they have a relationship with another god or gods. I don't think people are depressed because they do believe in god, but rather because their knowledge about life is limited.
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Post by ladytera on Sept 2, 2008 7:03:07 GMT -5
Forgive me if I get a little disjointed. I decided to see if I can do a coherent reply while I'm taking breaks from work. I've got a hell of an imagination. I don't know what a universe without God would be like, but I have certainly explored the idea. However, what I meant by God in this instance was that there is an overall purpose and order to the universe that I don't seems a little too intricate and precise to have been a mere accident. I am actually a firm believer in evolution. The ideas of intelligent design and evolution are not mutually exclusive. In humans in particular, the appendix, the teeth, and the tonsils are perfect examples of evolution within a species. Skin color, eyes shape, and nose shape have also deviated over the years as an adaptation to the environment people lived in. But, even with the idea of evolution, and eons of time, there is nothing to support the idea in nature that we would spontaeously, or even gradually build from a single cell organism to the complexities of human beings or even other animals. There's nothing to prove it couldn't have happened either. But, logically speaking, I've found evolution as the sole basis of life to be fairly unsupported, and based as much on supposition and wishful thinking as many evolutionist believe God to be. The metaphor doesn't quite fit though. There you're talking about learning, which our very complex brains had to exist for, evolution as described in theory discounts the idea of intelligent design, therefore doesn't have a learning curve. And you're right, however it got here, nature, human beings included, is pretty amazing. That arguement contradicts itself. If it was survival of the fittest, those people that had problems like that would either die of it early on, or be killed by the herd as a throw back. Homosexuals would also be eliminated, because the genes that cause it (if you think it's genetic and not environemental), would have to be missing something because it was lacking the drive to procreate, and it would follow that that genetic trait would die on its own for the same reason. Of course things are far from perfect in life, but I guess my point on the myriad of things at can go wrong in a human body was that the miracle is that we don't die of malfunction before we're born. Not at all, God let's you experience those things, and provides for you whether you believe in him or not. Often if people don't believe they are unwilling or unable to take advantage of them, but that doesn't have anything to do with God, that has to do with our own limitations as human beings. The answer to that last part entirely depends on your definition of miracle. If a miracle is simply something amazing, or beautiful, then the answer is kind of yes and no, but for purposes of this conversation, yes, amazing things can happen whether or not there is a God. I define miracle by its somewhat older and religious meaning, as being something that happens that is beyond rational explanation, and comes from God. So, in that context, no miracles can't happen without God, because by definition they are of God. I don't particularly disagree with any of what you said there, except maybe the logic of it, however, that doesn't quite hit the point of what I was (apparently poorly) trying to communicate. I don't believe that God exists because some good things have happened in my life, and I don't believe that God exists because some bad things have happened that good things eventally came out of. I believe in God, and his hand in those things, because I recognize the pattern in those events over the course of my life. This goes to the quote you mentioned below, because I do think about it. Most of the individual events in my life at the time were trivial, infitesimal decisions, that seemingly would not have made a difference in the overall picture. God only knows (literally and figuratively) how many roads not taken have saved my life, my sanity or my situation over the years. But simple truth, looking back at the whole, is that there is a pattern of protection when I was being an idiot, and peace when I was making an effort to follow a relationship with God. There is a pattern that I cannot explain as chance, or as any insight or understanding on my part, that should not exist in a world where each day is an adventure, a new experience, and life is just a random collection of moments. I do, always. The inevitable follow to that is how did that one moment then affect every life you touched, did the smile to the old woman hearten her day, did the dollar you gave the beggar give him just enough to get a room for the night so he didn't freeze, did the violin music remind you of an old friend you called later, at just the moment they needed your voice? And was it merely chance, or some greater purpose that brought those random choices to that seemingly inconsequential moment? Always. That's always one of my recurring themes, and firm beliefs, it is up to each of us. In the context of that relationship being a basic part of human nature, not acknowledging it is just a passive agressive fight. However, I won't argue that point, because it's moot if you are coming for two different premises as we are. You are right that believing or not believing in God won't necessarily cause depression. Depression usually comes from a sense of hopelessness, whether chemically or situationaly induced. And you're kind of right, in that not knowing what tomorrow has to offer, a sense of hopelessness is easy to fall into when you're unhappy, and today is no different than yesterday, and you can't see why tomorrow would be either. That comes more down to a life view and the difference between optimism and pessimism.
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Post by Lady Dark Moon on Sept 2, 2008 20:54:28 GMT -5
Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions, ladytera. I'll speak up again if I have input. For now, I shall continue to haunt this thread.
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Post by keyodie on Sept 2, 2008 21:26:55 GMT -5
I am actually a firm believer in evolution. The ideas of intelligent design and evolution are not mutually exclusive. In humans in particular, the appendix, the teeth, and the tonsils are perfect examples of evolution within a species. Skin color, eyes shape, and nose shape have also deviated over the years as an adaptation to the environment people lived in. But, even with the idea of evolution, and eons of time, there is nothing to support the idea in nature that we would spontaeously, or even gradually build from a single cell organism to the complexities of human beings or even other animals. There's nothing to prove it couldn't have happened either.Exactly. xD It can't be proven wrong and it can't be proven right. Like I mentioned before, I don't know if something like that happened, I just think it could have been possible. 'Twas nothing but speculation. But, logically speaking, I've found evolution as the sole basis of life to be fairly unsupported, and based as much on supposition and wishful thinking as many evolutionist believe God to be. The metaphor doesn't quite fit though. There you're talking about learning, which our very complex brains had to exist for, evolution as described in theory discounts the idea of intelligent design, therefore doesn't have a learning curve. And you're right, however it got here, nature, human beings included, is pretty amazing. Maybe you misunderstood me. xD I was simply comparing the gradual build-up in both cases. How do we learn math? At first, we learn the basics, and slowly we build up on top of it. Eventually, we'll be learning really complex math. This gradual build up is what I was trying to explain. It's like building blocks... You can't skip around, you have to learn one thing after another. Life could have been extremely simple at first and then slowly become more complex as time went on. I wasn't saying that evolution involves "learning", it doesn't. It involves natural selection. That arguement contradicts itself. If it was survival of the fittest, those people that had problems like that would either die of it early on, or be killed by the herd as a throw back. Homosexuals would also be eliminated, because the genes that cause it (if you think it's genetic and not environemental), would have to be missing something because it was lacking the drive to procreate, and it would follow that that genetic trait would die on its own for the same reason. Of course things are far from perfect in life, but I guess my point on the myriad of things at can go wrong in a human body was that the miracle is that we don't die of malfunction before we're born. Why is there natural selection still occuring today? Because of mutations. That's why the people with the problems I mention still exist. As for homosexuals, that's a completely different matter. I suppose it has been proven that homosexuality is genetic, but I'm sure a lot of gays were turned that way by environmental causes. Also, people weren't too accepting of homosexuals in the past, and I bet a lot of them got married and had kids due to social pressure. Those are not the only reasons there are still gays today, I'm just trying to say that there are a lot of factors that go into that kind of thing. And yeah, I understand your point... But it's like watching gymnasts at the Olympics. You marvel at all that tumbling and seemingly impossible moves, but if you were there for all of their practices in their entire life, getting better and better as time went on, it wouldn't seem as impossible. I hope you get what I'm trying to say here. xD I don't particularly disagree with any of what you said there, except maybe the logic of it, however, that doesn't quite hit the point of what I was (apparently poorly) trying to communicate. I don't believe that God exists because some good things have happened in my life, and I don't believe that God exists because some bad things have happened that good things eventally came out of. I believe in God, and his hand in those things, because I recognize the pattern in those events over the course of my life. This goes to the quote you mentioned below, because I do think about it. Most of the individual events in my life at the time were trivial, infitesimal decisions, that seemingly would not have made a difference in the overall picture. God only knows (literally and figuratively) how many roads not taken have saved my life, my sanity or my situation over the years. But simple truth, looking back at the whole, is that there is a pattern of protection when I was being an idiot, and peace when I was making an effort to follow a relationship with God. There is a pattern that I cannot explain as chance, or as any insight or understanding on my part, that should not exist in a world where each day is an adventure, a new experience, and life is just a random collection of moments. I was just trying to make the point (though in a very vague way) that good things happen in anyone's life, and that they can think whatever they want of them. It doesn't necessarily have to be God and it doesn't necessarily have to be a lucky occurrence. Your life is whatever you make it out to be. And you know those horoscope things? Those incredibly vague predictions of what's to come? Well, if you look back on the previous month and read what the horoscope for that month was, I'm sure there will be times when it seems to fit what happened. But that's because if you look hard enough for a pattern, you'll probably find one. Hey, I might be wrong. After all, I don't know you or your life. It's just that I usually don't trust it when people say that kind of thing. In the context of that relationship being a basic part of human nature, not acknowledging it is just a passive agressive fight. However, I won't argue that point, because it's moot if you are coming for two different premises as we are. You are right that believing or not believing in God won't necessarily cause depression. Depression usually comes from a sense of hopelessness, whether chemically or situationaly induced. And you're kind of right, in that not knowing what tomorrow has to offer, a sense of hopelessness is easy to fall into when you're unhappy, and today is no different than yesterday, and you can't see why tomorrow would be either. That comes more down to a life view and the difference between optimism and pessimism. Haha yeah, I think that Christians added God to their life while you think atheists removed God from their life, so there's not much else to add.
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Post by ladytera on Sept 3, 2008 5:11:41 GMT -5
Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions, ladytera. I'll speak up again if I have input. For now, I shall continue to haunt this thread. Always a pleasure, LDM, and haunt away. All the questions and conversation have really gotten some interesting thought processes going on for me. It's been a long while since I've had to attempt to explain the things I believe, and I find faith becomes a little stagnant if you don't examine it pretty regularly. Any further thoughts are always welcome, wherever and whenever they occur. Keyodi, I'll get back to you shortly. However, it'll probably be short. We've kind of hit the agree to disagree point on most of it. I'll have to come up with another aspect to chat about. I realized that I once again posed a question, responded to answers, and failed to post my own answer to the question I started with. I'll be getting around to that soon. And I look forward to being challenged on it.
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Post by Caunion on Sept 3, 2008 14:43:04 GMT -5
This goes back to the entire divine blackmail idea. Say, you steal something or kill someone, you go to jail because you have proved to be a threat to society. Also, jail is relatively limited in its duration. If you steal something, you'll be in jail for ten years, long enough for you to recognise your mistakes and hopefully redeem yourself. If you murder someone, you'll be there for the rest of your lives but it's not an eternity like hell is. Hell is an infinite punishment for just one decision. Does that seem fair to you? Even serial killers and rapists do not have to suffer that long and one would assume they deserve an eternal punishment.
A closer analogy to God offering us to choice between heaven and hell can be described here.
The similarities between God and Stalin here are unmistakable. Like Stalin, God essentially is forcing us to choose between him and Hell. Also what separates laws saying "Don't steal" or "Don't kill" and God asking us to love him or else, is that the laws do not have an ultimate punishment for those crimes. There's a judicial branch that criminals go through to ensure a fair trial. With God, there is no grey area.
Yes. I'm rather hard pressed to find someone who love God because they actually love him. Not because they were brought up loving him or because they were scared to. Although, it is rather hard to affirm that you're truly loving God and not loving him because you were brought up or scared into it.
I have a question. What truly makes a person a Christian? I hear all these different ways, which one is true and which one is wrong?
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Post by ladytera on Sept 4, 2008 1:45:00 GMT -5
I'm not going to hit all of this right now, 'cause I actually have a chance to get a full 7 hours sleep for the first time in a week if I don't dawdle at work tonight. But this one is easy.
Biblicaly speaking, being a Christian is the acceptance that Christ was the promised New Covenant of the Old Testament. The only addendum I would add to that is the realization that the New Covenant, Redemption, Salvation, whatever you want to call it, was simply the request by God that we allow him to love us, by accepting the love he gave with that redemption. No more, no less, that is what it takes to be a Christian. The rest is a journey that each person makes on their own in exploring that love, and churches are intended to help us understand it better.
One question, before I get to the rest of you post. Can you give me your definition of blackmail so I know where to start. Thanks.
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Post by Caunion on Sept 4, 2008 14:57:55 GMT -5
The definition of blackmail that I use comes from the Oxford dictionary and is as followed.
That's it? I'm not quite sure if that makes sense. You take a person who is the most vile piece of scum on the face of Earth and all he has to do is say "I accept Jesus in my heart and I allow him to love me" and he's off to heaven? While a Muslim or a Jew who lives their life completely moral will go to hell.
I know I'm very critical of hell but, I think the idea of hell is what compelling people to become Christians.
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Post by bdole on Sept 6, 2008 23:20:37 GMT -5
ok to be honest, i havent read what other people said. im just gona post my reply. christianity is a life destroying religion constructed to force people into worship of a sadistic narsisitic sky-god diety. it has done nothing to promote rational debate nor helped humanity in any way and has repeatedly blocked all efforts of progressive men and women to change the world for the better. if christianity where to get wiped off the face of the earth id dance with joy.
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Post by Lady Dark Moon on Sept 7, 2008 0:38:16 GMT -5
^Okay I'm atheist/agnostic, and even I have to say that your above comment is the most screwed thing I've ever heard. For all its flaws Christianity can be a beautiful religion, given the chance. There will always be religion. Civilization can't survive without it. I'm just glad we got landed with Christianity instead of some insanity involving human sacrifice.
Caunion, I agree with the hell blackmail completely. Love of God is one thing, fear of death/hell another. It'd be great if all Christians were to have this positive outlook on death, but it just isn't possible. The fear of death is so deeply ingrained in our instincts that it's subconscious, whether or not Christians deny it. As for this believe in Jesus=redemption thing, I have an opinion on that, but I shall wait for ladytera's reply.
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Post by corgilove on Sept 7, 2008 21:18:31 GMT -5
ok to be honest, i havent read what other people said. im just gona post my reply. christianity is a life destroying religion constructed to force people into worship of a sadistic narsisitic sky-god diety. it has done nothing to promote rational debate nor helped humanity in any way and has repeatedly blocked all efforts of progressive men and women to change the world for the better. if christianity where to get wiped off the face of the earth id dance with joy. I was going to join this discussion and share my ideas as Christian, which is sometimes hard for me to do when I am one of few in the discussion who actually is a Christian. But this was rude and uncalled for, and even I wouldn't DANCE at the sight of other people losing their religion, whether I agree with it or not. Life destroying religion? Sorry? I'm confused. Maybe someone has hurt you in the past or rubbed you the wrong way, but I've failed to see how this could be true. That's a rude statement, and it's uncalled for. I hope you realize that it's you who looks bad, and not the people who have faith in something. I thought this would be a nice place to discuss things, looks like some people just can't grasp being civil. How unfortunate.
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Post by Caunion on Sept 7, 2008 22:11:51 GMT -5
ok to be honest, i havent read what other people said. im just gona post my reply. christianity is a life destroying religion constructed to force people into worship of a sadistic narsisitic sky-god diety. it has done nothing to promote rational debate nor helped humanity in any way and has repeatedly blocked all efforts of progressive men and women to change the world for the better. if christianity where to get wiped off the face of the earth id dance with joy. While it is fair to say that many Christian institutions were once and still remain a barrier between us and reason (The Roman Catholic Church with the heliocentric theory, Christian evangelicals in stem cell research and evolution) and the Christian God is certainly quite sadistic and narcissistic, it is important that we respect the beliefs of other people here. We are here to rationally criticise different aspects of a religion, not to dismiss it as life-destroying.
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Post by ladytera on Sept 8, 2008 5:57:54 GMT -5
ok to be honest, i havent read what other people said. im just gona post my reply. christianity is a life destroying religion constructed to force people into worship of a sadistic narsisitic sky-god diety. it has done nothing to promote rational debate nor helped humanity in any way and has repeatedly blocked all efforts of progressive men and women to change the world for the better. if christianity where to get wiped off the face of the earth id dance with joy. Josh, as I took the time to read your introduction when you first joined here, I'm inclined cut you a little slack, and give you a few pointers. First, please take a few minutes to read the rules for this forum that the administrators have thoughtfully provided. Once you have, you will realize that the comment you posted here is grounds for being banned from the forum. I would ask the admins not to do this, as I am a firm believer in saying what is on your mind, even when I don't agree. Second, you mentioned that you have not participated in forums before, so a pointer on etiquette and the purpose of these types of forum. The idea to this type of forum is to promote the free exchange of ideas, to give everyone an opportunity to learn something from each other. When you make statements that are general, vicious, and unsupported, not only is it rude, but it sidetracks the conversation that others are trying to have. You stated yourself that you had not bothered to read what others had written, which indicates that you are not really interested in a conversation, but in insulting people out of angst, and attempting to disrupt other people's ability to exchange information, effectively trying to kill their rational conversation, which sounds a lot like what you accused Christianity of doing. Case in point, I have two other people waiting to have their comments and questions addressed, and instead I am responding to you, completely off topic. Another point of etiquette, other than actually taking the time to read what's here before you post, you need to take the time to respond. You posted in another thread I opened here, and I took the time to address your post, but to date, I don't believe you've responded to that. Forums are for conversations among diverse people, with differing points of view, not for sweeping statements. The admins here started this forum precisely to get away from that kind of baseless attack. While I do not take particular offense to your comments, and will actually take the time to address them as I have done everyone else's, others here prefer a less confrontational approach. And while I am fully open to all comers as far as reasonable debate goes, I do not want to waste my time if you are not open to an actual conversation. Lastly, you mentioned in your intro that you have very strong opinions on politics and religion, that they are fairly negative, and asked that you not be asked about those subjects. If that is truly how you feel, then I would invite you to come play on the other areas of the forum, and stay out of the discussion and debate threads that are set up specifically for those subjects. If, on the other hand, you want to support the comments you made, and respond to others with respect, by all means, please join the conversation. All thoughts and opinions are welcome. LT The rest of you, thanks for your very eloquent defense of the conversation here, I'm glad you all found it worth defending. Tomorrow is my day off, so I should have some time to get back to all of your posts tomorrow night. I can't wait! Corgilove - Welcome to the forum, and I hope you'll reconsider joining the conversation. As you can see from the rest of the thread, while the majority of those in the discussion are not Christian, they are willing to listen, pose great questions, and are pretty fun to talk to. I'd beg you indulgence with bdole, at least this once, he's young, and a bit reckless still with his words. I look forward to any comments, questions or insights you may care to post.
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Post by Ammy Fae on Sept 8, 2008 8:46:41 GMT -5
Josh - I think everyone else pretty much covered it and, as long as all of you don't retaliate by throwing insults, I don't see how anything but a slap on the wrist will do anyone much good here. I'm going to ask you once and only once so join the discussion, read the other posts, post your own reasoning for your very blunt opinions, or avoid this topic if you think you can't do that. You're very much entitled to your own opinion here, but it's a discussion. If you want to rant willy-nilly about Christianity, direct yourself to the rant section. Corgilove - LT pretty much said it. I'd love for you to join in, because any and all opinions[even misguided ones ] are welcome here. No one will pick on you for your religion, I promise. I have my sledge hammer on hand to beat heads if it gets out of hand and, worse comes to worst, I'll just start a debate topic and move things there if it gets heated. Please reconsider joining up. It's a fun, interesting discussion so far and I'd love to see everyone join it eventually. On that note, I'm finally done with my other website so I have a bit of time to read through everything at length instead of skimming and post my answers to the questions you guys have posted. LT, I'm sure, will keep me updated if I skip over anything important.
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Post by corgilove on Sept 8, 2008 13:44:12 GMT -5
I apologize, you all are very civil except for the one person, and I will not let that one person ruin a nice discussion for me To answer the original question, to me Chirstianity is a very important part of my life. The day I became Saved, I had never felt so fresh and clean before. I had a very hard time growing up to put it in the nicest context, and I was also never exposed to any set religion- so if I wanted to be a Christian, Jew, or whatever I chose it was really up to me to decide that. So when I was placed in a religious school, I was taught about the Bible and Jesus, and all the good stuff. Now, as most Christian schools are I was taught all kinds of intolerance- which I so completely disagree with. Anyway, it was until about Senior year that I really considered relgion, and shortly after I became Saved. I won't claim God talks to me, and I won't claim that I understand everything the Bible says. In fact, there are some things in there I find saddening. But to ME, Christianity is beautiful and has pulled me through a lot and has help me come to rest with the things in my past. And yes, Jesus IS my life. And I don't expect others to understand unless they know Jesus the way I and other Christians do. I didn't get it until I was Saved. In fact, before I was an Athiest myself. I read here, and I forgot who said it, that Christianity is like black mail because of the Heaven & Hell part. I have to disagree. If you were to ask any person who loved God, they would laugh at the question if they felt black mailed into it. Yes, Hell is a SCARY thought. However, I've never felt I should accept Jesus because of it. Don't get me wrong, I can completely see why you could come to that conclusion. But like I said, anyone who truely loves and has Jesus in their hearts do not feel black mailed to do so. God is forcing you to choose between Him and hell? Forcing? There are several things very wrong with that statement. If he was forcing, how would there be unbelievers? To say God is forcing you to choose, you'd have to say you know he exists. To know he exists would ruin the entire idea of Atheism. As you know, God gave us free will. To be forced to choose is the exact opposite of that. If someone were to know God was there because He's been forcing you all along, why would they chose Hell anyway? Would that even make sense?To choose to believe in God is a leap of faith. I've said this in another thread, Christianity isn't having proof and facts. It's faith. How could faith even exist if he was constantly forcing us? And God doesn't want you to believe in Him because you don't want to go to Hell. God wants you to believe in Him because you want to. I hope that makes some sense. Like I said, I haven't read the whole Bible and I don't have all the answers. I too have questions about God that I will probably NEVER understand. However, God's ways aren't mine. And I have to settle with that when it comes to the things I just don't get. I hope that made some sense.
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Post by Caunion on Sept 8, 2008 22:26:21 GMT -5
I read here, and I forgot who said it, that Christianity is like black mail because of the Heaven & Hell part. I have to disagree. If you were to ask any person who loved God, they would laugh at the question if they felt black mailed into it. Yes, Hell is a SCARY thought. However, I've never felt I should accept Jesus because of it. Don't get me wrong, I can completely see why you could come to that conclusion. But like I said, anyone who truely loves and has Jesus in their hearts do not feel black mailed to do so. That'll be me. And the credit to that idea isn't mine. It came from a certain blogger and I felt that it was worth mentioning. (The blogger in question is Ebonmuse) And yes. Of course, you didn't accept Jesus because of hell. But, no offense, you're one out of about 1.5 - 2.1 billion people. While I'm not suggesting that everyone else was scared into believing in Jesus, I'm merely commenting that certain denominations of Christianity use the concept of hell as a way to obtain followers. Of course, you or other people wouldn't feel blackmailed to it. For most people, from birth to death, you're told that Jesus loves you. Aww, isn't that sweet...You grow up thinking Jesus loves you, you think Jesus wouldn't ever ever blackmail you. Because why would sweet kind Jesus ever blackmail you? Oh, maybe because he's going to "be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ...." (2 Thessalonians 1:7-8) and "cast them [those who don't believe in Jesus] into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 13:42). But, you don't see that part. 'Cause if you actually read the Bible, with a clear mind or thinking "God is right, no matter what" while you're reading it, you'll actually find that God and the different forms of him (Jesus is a form of God, right? Yes? That was what I was taught in Sunday School at least) is actually an egotistic, sadistic tyrant. I don't even want to go over all the atrocities in the Old Testament. Yes, the practices in the Old Testament are outdated and I know wiping out entire villages was quite common during the time period where the Bible was set. But most of those were commanded by rulers who are now dead. Not a god still worshiped in the 21st century. And there are people know Jesus and God much more than you ever will. Consider the Jewish children who were taken from their families by the papal police under orders of the Inquisition and forcibly converted into Catholicism. Or the millions of Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, disabled people, Slavs, and political and religious dissidents who were herded into trains that would take them to suffering and death by soldiers who wore "Gott mit uns" on their belt buckles. Or the hundreds of thousands of children and adolescents who are suffering from nightmares because their parents and pastors repeatedly told them that their heathen friends will burn forever in Hell. Do you know that side of the story? The scary truth is that you may say these people are not true Christians but the fact is they ARE true Christians. They truly believe in the Bible and that it is the Word of God. They actually believe in what they say they believe in. (taken from The God Delusion. Thank you, Richard Dawkins) After all, unquestionable faith is a virtue taught to you by your religious leaders. I remember I was told that I should trust God no matter what. It's the same thing with those people. Only they actually trusted God no matter what. No matter if it was wrong or cruel or inhumane. No matter if people's families were going to be ripped apart or people's lives were going to be snuffed out like blowing out a candle. The anti-abortionist who storms an abortion clinic with a shotgun, the warlord who orders children to fight and die in the jungles of Uganda, the crusader who slaughters the infidels in a distant desert village, the inquisitor who tortures the heretic in a dungeon, the evangelical who gleefully welcomes ten year old children into a Hell House designed to literally put the fear of God into them. All of these are examples of people who sincerely believe in what the Bible tells them. The same Bible that we give to children to read and tell them that God loves them. These people were told/taught that they would be rewarded for their faith in God. I don't have to do no such thing. I don't have to say he exist just because he's forcing me to choose between him and Hell. While I do not believe he exist in the metaphysical world we live or in the celestial planes, he does exist in the Bible. The same Bible used by preachers to forcing me to choose between God and hell. After all, those preachers are mouthpieces of their God. I'm confident I don't have to retort to the issue of faith right now. No I'm sure God is quite clear he WANTS us to believe in him because we don't want to go Hell or suffer a similar punishment. If he was quite keen to let us choose to believe in him, then why did he repeatedly punished the Hebrews for turning away from him? Did he have a sudden change of heart? I thought he was all-knowing. Thus he would know he would have a change of heart and wouldn't punish the Hebrews. Unless he actually wanted to punish them. At this point, I should make myself clear. No, I am not completely anti-Christian. I do appreciate the moderate Christians who do not complete faith in the Bible and what God says and actually use their head. By no means am I hostile to you or them. While what I say will hurt, the simple fact of life is truth does hurt. Personally, if you want to say homosexuals or atheists or family planning agents will burn in hell. Fine. See if I care. But once you start killing them, that's when I get pissed. I'm fervently anti-Christian when it comes to people being killed because of Christianity. Or any religion for that matter.
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Post by ladytera on Sept 9, 2008 2:33:22 GMT -5
Hello everyone, I'm back. Keyodie, I reread your last post, and quite honestly, I think I had it right before, we've either hit a point of agreement, or we've hit a point of disagreement that stems from differing experiences and perspectives. So please don't get mad at me if I don't address those. Thank you, though for the great insight, metaphors, and conversation, it looks like we might have more to chat about here soon. Others seem to be chiming in.
LDM - I'm pretty sure I'll address the post you made agreeing with Caunion here, so to conserve time and posts, I'm going to try to do as much of this in one as possible.
Riq, thanks for your patience. I'm going to address the two earlier posts here, get to some others, and hopefully still have time to hit the last one you made before I have to go to bed.
Some laws do have eternal consequences, if you are of the nothing after death persuasion. If you believe that there is no heaven or hell, that it's just a great big nothing, and this is the only life you have to live, then the death penalty would be an eternal punishment. But, I kind of digress a little. I think the difficulty, which is compounded by all the churches that preach hell as punishment, is that hell is not a punishment. Hell is a result, and it is one that God is helpless to prevent. Analogy time. Say you get in a huge fight with your parents, and decide that you hate their guts, and you will never speak to them or see them again. Once you are over 18, this is entirely your choice and your right. Now, assume that your parents love you unconditionally, as God promised he would love us. Do you believe that they will stop loving you because you have chosen to stop loving them? If the love is unconditional, the answer to that would be absolutely not, they will love you no matter what you do. However, because it is your absolute right to cut them out of your life at 18, their love can't really do much for you, or force you to do anything, if you choose not to accept it. This is the same situation God is in. He gave us the freedom to make our own choices, and if we choose not to accept his love, he cannot force it on us, he can only love us from afar, and do his best to protect us from afar from the consequences of our actions. As I said before, I don't believe that hell his a place with lakes of fire, and burning ice. I think that most of that is very vivid imagery, to try to explain what the lack of God's love would lead to. So, if you take it that Hell is a state of existence in which you have refused God's love, and he cannot force his love on you, then Hell becomes not a punishment, or a tool, but simply the result in your life of your own refusal to be loved. While I will not disagree that many churches use the idea of hell to instill "the fear of God" in their congregations, I don't believe that this was God's intent. I believe that the stories of hell in the Bible were designed to try to communicate the misery we would bring ourselves and others if we refuse to be loved.
Riq, I had to laugh when I read this, but at the same time, from your perspective of what hell is, I can understand your point. I said in an earlier post, even the Devil can quote scripture, and Stalin was certainly deserving of that title. No one claims that religion cannot be twisted to the evil ends of man. But God does not make the circular arguement that he will put you in the gulag, if you don't love him, so you should love him. He simply loves us, period. And we in turn create our own hell.
Can I say that I wasn't brought up to love God? No, not really. My Grandfather was a Baptist minister, and a missionary to Brazil for most of my father's childhood. My Mom and Dad are both people of faith, in their own way. I grew up going to church sporadically, seeing my grandfather seldomly, but being irritated by his "preaching" at me, and my youthful perception of his hypocrasy when he would talk of God in one sentence, and gossip in the next. I grew up believing there was a God, and that Jesus was the savior, and never understanding what any of that meant, or why it would have anything to do with now, because after all, heaven and hell are for after you die. My parents, while they believed, were not the bible thumping kind. My father who is much more articulate about his faith, was gone much of my life, and it wasn't a topic we really discussed much outside Sunday morning service. It wasn't until I grew up and started to actually live my life, and btw make a complete mess of it on a regular basis, that I began to question why I believed the things I believe, and more importantly, why they were relevant. So now, I am not afraid of not loving God, more importantly, I am not afraid of God not loving me. Nor do I think it was entirely my upbringing that led me to that love. It merely very quietly laid a foundation for me to build on or not.
I hit the blackmail thing earlier.
Actually, yes, biblically, that's it, sort of. You also need to ask forgiveness, I guess. But basically yes, you accept God's love and his manifestation of that love, and off to heaven you go. The rest of it is more relevant to your life here on earth than the afterlife. That seems unfair to you, I assume. Again it comes back what hell is. If you reject God's love, he can't love you. Do I think that this means the 4 billion people on the planet that aren't Christians are going to hell? Not really. I mentioned in another post as well that I believe God has plans I know nothing about, and that every human being on this planet is his child. I can't think of a single parent that would consign their children to damnation without the opportunity to be loved. How he brings that about, or how it squares with the Bible I don't know, but I'm absolutely sure He does.
Are there Christians who become Christian because they fear hell? I'm sure there are. Do they find God in their day to day lives? I don't know, but probably not. Do some churches use the threat of Hell to manipulate people in an effort to fulfill what they see as their duty? Yep, I'd bet there are many. Is that God's intent? I doubt it. God works through all the crap that organized religion can place as a barrier between him and his children, if we let him though. So I just do my best to share what I've learned, and leave the rest of it for him to deal with. A note, and point on some of that though. While I may not agree with the ritualism of Catholicism, or the fire and brimstone of the Southern Baptists, or many of the other ideas of a lot of churches, we are all unique individuals, and God speaks to each of us differently. For some, at least initially, those types of churches may be the only way for them to find peace. I would not deny them that.
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Post by ladytera on Sept 9, 2008 2:43:21 GMT -5
ok to be honest, i havent read what other people said. im just gona post my reply. christianity is a life destroying religion constructed to force people into worship of a sadistic narsisitic sky-god diety. it has done nothing to promote rational debate nor helped humanity in any way and has repeatedly blocked all efforts of progressive men and women to change the world for the better. if christianity where to get wiped off the face of the earth id dance with joy. Hi Josh. Since I already addressed the form your comments took earlier, I won't go there. But the content deserves the same respect everyone else has gotten. But I think I'm going to have to pose some questions first before I can discuss a lot of it. Much of this also may have already been addressed in earlier posts. Why do you believe Christianity is life-destroying? Why do you believe God is narcissistic and sadistic? CS Lewis was a phenomenal scholar of the socio-politcal sciences and world events during his time, and was an avowed Christian, Galileo was a Christian, Abraham Lincoln was a Christian, many of our Founding Fathers who formed the longest running form of government in history were Christians. Those are just a few off the top of my head who have promoted science, philosophy, and freedom and progress around the world. While there are doctrinal difference between Christians and some scientists regarding the ethics of some types of research, most Christians feel strongly that science is a necessary and important area of pursuit. Most Christian organizations have groups that are devoted solely to the betterment of the world around them, without regard to converting people, but simply because they believe that as they have been blessed with time, talent, or wealth, so they should bless others. So while I appreciate that you have an opinion, I would also appreciate you sharing the reasons for those opinions so that you can join the discourse and have your ideas heard.
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