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Post by ladytera on Sept 9, 2008 2:54:19 GMT -5
I apologize, you all are very civil except for the one person, and I will not let that one person ruin a nice discussion for me No apologies necessary. I hope you still enjoy the conversation, although I will warn you ahead of time (as you'll see from subsequent posts) that there are many on this forum who hold very strong views and will argue with yours. I hope you don't let that put you off either though. Faith grows through examination, and without questions it is impossible to come to know God. So thanks for the post, and please excuse me if I only hit a few points here, as I am a Christian as well, and tend to agree with a lot of it, and I hate sounding like a parrot. God talks to me, all the time, I just so very often fail to listen. And no, I'm not nuts, and I don't hear voices. God talks to us in the world around us, the people we meet, the music we hear, the pictures that move us, and the lives that we live. The noise around us just sometimes drowns him out. You're probably right that you won't ever quite get all of the Bible. I can't say I do either, but the more I read, the more things in my own life make a little more sense sometimes. You might want to try reading the Message translation. It's a little easier to comprehend than the King James or NIV. I'm glad you feel so blessed, and not so lost now. I addressed this elsewhere, and will again. Caunion was the one who posed this here, as he'll tell you in the post after yours. It's been a fun conversation so far. I love these points. Very well said. Yep. Thanks so much for joining the discussion.
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Post by ladytera on Sept 9, 2008 3:40:34 GMT -5
Yeah, we've hit three pages in this conversation! That is like, totally, cool. Riq, I'm going to argue with you here, but first let me say this was, as usual very eloquently put. And I love the fact that you use what you know about history and the world to draw on. Okay, enough, back to the arguement... *cough* I mean dicussion at hand. And I have to say, once again, you made me not only chuckle, but laugh out loud a few times. Your enthusiasm and passion are great when you get on a roll. While I don't disagree (as I said earlier), that some do use hell as a bludgeon, I'd have to point out that you are one of 4 billion or so who don't believe, so all of our points of view are limited by our own experiences. Do you believe that gods of Olympia sent Hercules to perform the 12 tasks? Or that Zeus sat on high shooting lightening bolts down on the humans who displeased him? Or that the Norse God Oden was the bringer of thunder? The people of faith during the Greek, Roman, and Viking times certainly did. They created stories to explain natural disasters, cruelty, disease, and any number of other things that occured during their life times, and anything that could not be explained was attributed to the Gods. Do I believe that the Old Testament is the same? Yes and no. I believe that it is a historical text, that was written by men trying to understand their God as well as their world. Same goes for a lot of the New Testament. If you want to have an understanding of what the Bible means, you have to read it in perspective of when it was written, the culture, the taboos, and the beliefs of the time. Does that make the truth of it any less true? No, it just means two thousand years later we have to use reason and understanding to grasp what it says. Scholars spend years learning everything they possibly can about the Bible in all its various translations, and I've never met a one of them that will difinitively claim to know what God had in mind. So I certainly will not claim that because I believe the Bible to be the Word of God, I also understand the conflicts and contradictions of it. Once again I will say that the Bible was the word of God, written by men, through the lens of their experiences. As such, it's bound to be flawed. As to Jesus being sweet, you're kidding, right? Jesus was a rabble rouser who came and hung out with prostitutes, sick people, the faithless and godless. He came and tore down the temples, spit in the face of the folks in power, and finally shook things up so bad they nailed him to the cross. I wouldn't call any of that particularly sweet. What he was was righteous, and ever in the presence of his father. He wasn't egotistic, or sadistic, but he also wasn't passive, and was unafraid of calling folks out for their hypocrasy, cruelty, and stupidity. God's always been a kind of kick ass kind of guy, and his son wasn't much different. But it was never about bringing the world to heel. It was about leading them out of darkness. So, because in the 2 billion Christians there are on earth now, and the untold number there have been over the centuries, there have been some who have been megalomaniacs, bent on domination and destruction, that means that my faith and personal relationship with God is not well enough informed? Yes, actually I do know that side of the story. I have read the old testament. I know about the story of the flood that killed every living thing on earth except those in the Ark. I know the story of Soddom and Gammorah. I know the story of the Jews wandering in the wilderness, and the striking down of those who worshiped false idols. To name a few. I know that Hitler claimed to be a Catholic, and that he was trying to create the super race for the glory of God. I know that Mussolini was also Catholic (I think it was Catholic). I know that Rasputen was an evil bastard who tortured and killed in the name of God. In short, I know that men (and women) are capable of great evil, and that evil is often tolerated far longer than it should be when it is cloaked in the mantle of religion. Again, that does not discount the faith, or the tremendous good that is accomplished by the multitudes who know God, and are not insane assholes. And, actually, as twisted as it might sound to you, those folks probably did go to heaven. And under the Covenant made with God, they should have. But like I said, heaven and hell aren't about punishment and reward. I think the point there was that for God, in the Bible, or anywhere else, to have any power to force you to chose between him and hell, he would by definition have to exist. Otherwise the threat is nothing more than the empty words of men, and would only have the power of coercion if you chose to believe in God. And if you chose to believe in God, and believed that the choice was hell or eternal love, why would you make the choice of hell, unless you're just a flat out masochist. But since you don't believe in God, it shouldn't really matter. Sorry, I'm getting a little silly. This is where the arguements of atheism usually start to get a little circular. Why not? It is a bit different than the religion that you've been discussing so far. You do realize too, that declaring there is no God is as much a declaration of faith as any a Christian might make. For all the two thousand years people have been trying, they have never been able to disprove the existence of God either. Actually, God wants us to believe in him because HE doesn't want us to go to hell of suffer some similar consequence. And since the Hebrews are the ones who wrote the Bible, do you think it might be possible that the misery they suffered was not a punishment of God, but a consequence of their actions, and they simply wanted someone to blame, as most people do when they screw up? Why would that be in the Word of God then, you ask? Perhaps as an example of the consequences we will bring on ourselves without God's presence in our lives, rather than a threat of what he will do to us if we don't follow his direction. Riq, this whole paragraph made me smile. And on one absolute point I totally agree. When you start offing people in the name of your religion, you should have your ass kicked up around your ears, and then be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, or killed yourself if it happens to be a situation of saving the people you are attacking or killing your sorry ass. (I didn't mean you literally) As to the rest of it, I didn't figure you were entirely anti-Christian. But, let me pose a question, do you consider me, so far from this conversation, to be what you term a moderate Christian, who uses my head? (If the answer is no, I promise not to be offended). If the answer is yes however, I'd have to say you're wrong. While I am perfectly capable of using my head, posing an arguement, and supporting my positions, I am in no way a moderate Christian. I have complete faith in the Bible, but more importantly to me, I have complete faith in God. I am at my core, fundamentally Christian, although not necessarily what would be termed a fundamentalist these days. Because of that, I will not say homosexuals, atheists or family planning organizations will burn in hell, because I have faith that God will deal with each individual in His own way, with absolute love. If I did not have complete faith in God to do that, and complete faith in the Bible to be a guide, I would be much more likely to hold the views you describe, the fears you talk about, and the intolerance you so justifiably despise, because I would feel a need to fix it, to save them. My total faith lets me accept them instead for the incredible people most of them are. And btw, it doesn't hurt. The truth, as they say, will set you free. It is the lies you have to shed in the process that hurt.
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Post by keyodie on Sept 10, 2008 6:52:54 GMT -5
Haha, don't worry about it. Thanks for taking your time and replying to my posts. 'Twas a pleasure discussing with you.
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Post by corgilove on Sept 10, 2008 12:30:40 GMT -5
Caunion, I'm going to try and write back to you without quoting because I'm slow Heaven&Hell- No, I don't claim to say that every Christian is one because they fear Hell. But I'm just saying, that most of them aren't Christians because they are scared. If you read the Bible, Hell isn't even talked about very often, and to focus your time on the Bibels smallest subject, rather than it's best is silly IMO. Did I ever say that Jesus wasn't coming with a sword in hand to take vengeance on those who do not believe? Uh.. No! Did I ever say I didn't read that Jesus isn't just a Lamb, but a Lion? No. Do not tell me that I have not read or have not seen that part of the Bible, because your wrong. And no, not every Christian is brought up with parents who tell them Jesus loves them. Sweet, but wrong. No, Jesus wouldn't black mail me, but aww thanks for the opinion. To call my God egotistical, Sadistic, and a tyrant I find offensive, and if you could refrain from that I'd appreciate it. I'm not calling you any names and I think deep down you know that people of God would find that offensive. Again here you go with telling me things that "I don't know/have not seen" Sorry, but you're wrong. You think Christians think the world is all peachy? Sorry, wrong. And PS- anyone who kills is wrong, and in my opinion any Christian who uses the Bible to hurt others, judge others, or tell others what not to do, is wrong and clearly not have taken seriously what God has told us about judging others. So you can chose to have the issues about whatever you want and assume, but you can't touch faith? Interesting considering Christianity is BASED on faith. So you can run around everything else, but the foundation of Christianity is just untouchable. Interesting.. How does God punishing those who fell from him back then make him suddenly not all-knowing? I'm confused on how that makes sense. Sorry to dissapoint, but you didn't "hurt me" and nothing you have said, IMO, is "truth". So no, your "truth" didn't hurt.
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Post by Ammy Fae on Sept 10, 2008 18:06:05 GMT -5
Hello everyone, your friendly neighborhood Admin here popping in [finally] to add my two cents to the conversation. I haven't read through everything yet, but I've skimmed and I pretty much get the gist of where we are in the discussion.
To answer the starter question - Christianity, to me, is just the definition of a group of people who have accepted Christ[and God] into their lives. That is the core; everything gets complicated from there on out.
Like all religions, Christianity is made up of all different kinds of people brought together through one belief, one purpose, or one faith in something beyond general comprehension. The complicated part is that they're all brought together for the same reason and different reasons at the same time. Christians who have been raised to have faith in God are there because they believe what they've been taught. Christians who have found God in some way or another are there because they believe what they've discovered, which are two completely different things. Of course those aren't the only two reasons for becoming a Christian, but they're the main ones.
Now you're going to say 'But the hellfire! The brimstone!' The problem with the fear theory is that you're completely right, that it's a viable reason for being a Christian - except that if you truly believe that there is a Hell and that you'll either go there or somewhere else, then there's no reason to be afraid of it. If you accept God, you don't go, if you don't then you do go and it'd do you some good to accept your fate and quit whining about it. That's if you believe in it. If you don't, then there's no reason to fear it anyways. The concept of blackmail is null and void.
There are holes in that little theory, I know. There are people who blame their faith on fear, which is a sad thing, but if they take the time to actually read the Bible through and listen to people who have come into their own faith willingly[per say], then chances are they'll either realize that 'faith' is exactly the opposite of fear or call BS and not have faith either way. Again, null and void. If the former happens and they find that there's no reason to be afraid if you have faith that God will save you if you accept him, then yippee for you, you get an all-expense-paid trip to the land of milk and honey. If you call BS and figure there isn't a God, there isn't a Hell, and your crummy life on this crummy planet is the be-all-end-all, then yippee for you, you live your life worry-free of the fire and brimstone. It's a win-win situation.
I said a word up there a whole lot, the big 'F word' that strikes confusion into the minds of millions. But don't start scratching your head yet, let me finish.
Faith is universal. It doesn't always have to pertain to religion, though. I have faith that I will live another few minutes to finish typing out my post. I have faith that my Diet Coke will not be the one to finally kill me. I have faith that my cat will not suddenly turn into an evil were-cat with rabies by the light of the full moon and murder me in my sleep. 'But how do you know those things won't happen?' you cry in anguish. That's the point, I don't know. My Diet Coke could very well stop my heart before I finish this post while, however unlikely, my loyal were-cat bursts through my wall and eats my arm, but I'm really hoping that doesn't happen or you all won't get to read my witty examples. The entire point of faith is that you don't know whether something is or isn't going to happen[or is or isn't there in the case of God]. Even you atheists have faith; faith that there ISN'T a God, isn't a Heaven, isn't a Hell. There's the hitch. Everyone has faith, and everyone has different faith because everyone is different. It can never be wrong because it's unknown.
Now you're sitting there stumped at my reasoning and far-fetched metaphors. That's okay, I'm sure LT will reiterate what I have to say soon enough.
Onto my own reasoning.
I grew up smack in the middle of Catholicism and Protestantism[or whatever that word is]. I went to Catholic Mass, said my prayers, read my Bible, went to confession like a good little Catholic. I was even an altar server, if you can believe that. Did that make me a Christian? No, that made me practiced in the art of ritualistic religious worship. I worshiped God because it seemed like the thing to do at the time, I said my prayers like a robot and I swear I have early-onset arthritis from all the kneeling I did on stone floors. Until I read the Bible for the third time, I didn't understand why I was being told to say ten Hail Marys for stealing another little girl's pencil. Until my religion teacher asked me to draw her a picture of a crucified Jesus, I didn't realize how important the symbolism was to most Christians. I still don't understand most of it and I won't claim that I do, because the fact of the matter is that I have not lived my life to its fullest yet and until I do, I will not understand half the mysteries life has presented me, including religion. It's my firm belief that everyone is different and what may work for one person may not work for another, which is why organized religion isn't necessarily a bad thing to have. Some people need a church to go to, other people to listen to. That's why there are so many different sects of Christianity[and most other religions, for that matter] - because without them, so many people would be discontent and half the people who are Christians now wouldn't be if their options were limited to two or three kinds of churches to go to.
To sum up that rambling paragraph, I don't know what Christianity means because beyond the core definition, the meaning is different for everyone, and that's such an important thing. You are human. Rejoice. You are sentient and important enough to have emotions and thoughts and feelings and, once upon a time, your ancestors even thought they were the center of the universe. You are unique, just like everyone else.
Like I said before, I haven't read through all the posts thoroughly, so I probably missed some key points somewhere in there. Feel free to pose the questions again and I'll happily answer them.
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Post by keyodie on Sept 10, 2008 20:56:02 GMT -5
Ammy, I'm going to have to agree with a lot of what you said. It's so hard to generalize the people of any religion because religion brings together so many different kinds of people. I have to admit I'm a bit too harsh on religion sometimes, but that's mainly because when I think religion, I'm always thinking of the extremists I've run into. Also, it can cause some people to be close-minded about certain subjects. However, religion brings people together, creates order, helps people deal with grief, etc. There's a good side to religion as well as the bad side, I couldn't agree more. Now you're going to say 'But the hellfire! The brimstone!' The problem with the fear theory is that you're completely right, that it's a viable reason for being a Christian - except that if you truly believe that there is a Hell and that you'll either go there or somewhere else, then there's no reason to be afraid of it. If you accept God, you don't go, if you don't then you do go and it'd do you some good to accept your fate and quit whining about it. That's if you believe in it. If you don't, then there's no reason to fear it anyways. The concept of blackmail is null and void. I was just wondering, is that the only way to end up in hell in the christian religion? To not accept God into your heart? Faith is universal. It doesn't always have to pertain to religion, though. I have faith that I will live another few minutes to finish typing out my post. I have faith that my Diet Coke will not be the one to finally kill me. I have faith that my cat will not suddenly turn into an evil were-cat with rabies by the light of the full moon and murder me in my sleep. 'But how do you know those things won't happen?' you cry in anguish. That's the point, I don't know. My Diet Coke could very well stop my heart before I finish this post while, however unlikely, my loyal were-cat bursts through my wall and eats my arm, but I'm really hoping that doesn't happen or you all won't get to read my witty examples. The entire point of faith is that you don't know whether something is or isn't going to happen[or is or isn't there in the case of God]. Even you atheists have faith; faith that there ISN'T a God, isn't a Heaven, isn't a Hell. There's the hitch. Everyone has faith, and everyone has different faith because everyone is different. It can never be wrong because it's unknown. Well yeah, everyone has "faith" because every human on this planet has a brain. The brain allows you to think, and if you can think, you can have "faith" as you have defined it. I'm drinking some water right now and I have the faith that there isn't an invisible blood-sucking insect in there that I am about to swallow. But really, you can say that about any situation and any person at any time. It depends on what kind of faith you're talking about. Some definitions for "faith", courtesy of dictionary.com (my BFF): Confidence or trust in a person or thing. Like I said before, if this is your definition of faith, everyone with a brain has faith. Belief that is not based on proof. Well, in this case, atheists wouldn't have faith. Atheists believe in science, evidence, and proof. I know, you can say that there's no proof that god doesn't exist just like there's no proof that god does exist. However, God would have to be proven first before he can be disproved. Well, unless you're talking about things similar to your examples. Belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion. Atheists wouldn't have faith in this case either. Well actually, that depends on your definition of atheism... Some people think that atheism is a religion, while others think that atheism is the lack of religion. It can probably be both, depending on the person. And I won't go over the others, because they're all pretty self-explanatory. But I agree completely with what you said about the meaning being different for everyone. It's almost like there are 6 billion mini-religions in the world. I bet a lot of people from one religion are more alike to another religion than they might think. The difference between the religions are those specific events or names/god(s), but the ideas behind them can vary a lot for different people, and that's where it gets really confusing.
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Post by ladytera on Sept 13, 2008 4:51:04 GMT -5
Well, so far here I've articulated my views on Christianity quite a bit, but tonight, I think I feel like answering the original question I posed. Sorry to anyone waiting here or in another thread for a response from me. I promise I'll try to get back to all of them either this weekend, or Monday. I've kind of been wasting time tonight, so it'll probably have to wait until my actual day off. I'm feeling a little torn, broken, sad, and weepy this lovely Georgia night, so I figured that would be a kind of perfect time to talk about what Christianity means to me. I've never been much of a proponent of organized religion. I believe very strongly that it has it's place in the world, and an important place at that. But, God didn't tell us to go to synagogue, or meet each Sunday morning in a building we called his house. He told us wherever two or more were gathered in his name, he'd be there. And he told us that if we asked him into our hearts, there he would reside. So, for tonight, I'm going to set aside the lovely discussion we've been having about the good and bad the church has done in this world, and the proof of God, and all the other tidbits that have more to do with philosophy than what I have come to know and have faith in in my life. I killed another thread with a discussion of free will, that I mentioned earlier. And I won't go too much into the story of that, except to say that that was not the beginning of the miseries I inflicted on myself in this life, it was merely the turning point. And it led me to truly examine what it meant to be a Christian. Without the filter of what I learned in Sunday School, without the preaching, without the rituals and rites that we tend to put between ourselves and God. There's a reason we do that. Getting to know God up close is a difficult and uncomfortable proposition. It requires that we really take a look at ourselves, and truly see the things in our lives that are causing us heart ache. In short, it needs a broken heart most times, because until we hit that point, it is more painful to face ourselves, than it is to continue on alone. A lot of what I've learned about God has to do with becoming a parent, so please bear that in mind when you read this. Have you ever loved someone completely and totally unconditionally? Has anyone ever loved you that way? Have you ever known someone completely? Have you ever let anyone know you that way? Can you imagine someone knowing every thought before you think it, someone knowing your deepest fear, the one that tears at your psyche and leaves you in a cold sweat when you waken from a dream you can't remember, or the one that leaves you gasping and shaking, with your heart pounding out of your chest in the midst of a panic attack you can't understand? Can you imagine someone who knows every failure, every sorrow, every short cut you've ever taken, every harm you've ever caused, and every bad act you've ever done? Now, can you imagine that someone loving you anyway? Can you imagine that someone saying to you it's okay, because everyone of those things will be used in your life to do good, that they don't love you inspite of all that but that they embrace all of it as part of you? Can you imagine being able to cry, in great wailing sobs, or a silent flood, and knowing you don't have to be embarrassed, that there isn't any image to uphold, because the person with you knows your every heartbeat, and will take your every tear and turn it into joy? That doesn't quite cover it, but it's as close as I know how to come, in mere words, to describing who God is and what he is to me. He is everything, everywhere, in everyone, and my laughter is his, my sorrow is his, my fear is his, my anger is his, and my love is his, and because of that I never have to be afraid of him, or of myself. Every bad thing I've ever done, each wrong I have committed, is wiped clean with at least that one being. That doesn't mean I won't suffer consequences, it just means I don't have to be afraid, I don't have to be alone. It's been mentioned here that many who love God do so out of fear of retribution, but it's never been that for me. The idea that I can make God weep has also been derided here, but I can, and while I can't offer you science, I can offer you relationship. Several years ago, Ammy and her brother made a choice to live with their father when I was splitting up with my second husband. Had I had less experience with kids telling me they hate me for various reasons, or some of the various other things children say and do to try to hurt their parents feelings in their youthful efforts to express their dissatisfaction, I might have been truly hurt by that decision, and I might have wept for myself and the pain of rejection. But I didn't. I did, however weep. Not for myself, but for them, for the misery I knew would eventually arise from that decision, for the misery they'd gone through in being convinced to make that decision, and for my inability to protect them from it. My heart broke, and my tears flowed, and yet I told them, and showed them as often as I could just how much I loved them. I'd like to think that that attitude on my part, at least in some small measure, allowed Ammy to make the decision to come home when she needed to. Another illustration, that in all honesty took a little longer, is my second husband. There were reasons I loved the man. Our marriage ended badly (see the life thread if you want to know more), and the last few years of it were sheer misery for me and my kids. He was abusive, verbally, emotionally and sexually. He was an alcoholic. In short, he made my life, and my kids' lives a living hell for four years (getting progressively worse), and then continued to try to make my life hell after I finally left. He sicced DFACS on me, he worked with Ammy and her brother's dad to help him get custody, he tried to take custody of our children, he tried to make me out to be a drug addict (which I'm not and never have been), an incompetent mother, and an all around worthless human being. Worse than all of that, he tried to make my kids believe that too, and used them to try to torment me as well. This mostly ended, finally, about three years ago. Last month, he called me up to tell me that visitation was going to have to be changed because his wife was in the hospital with an illness I had dealt with several times, starting when I was hospitalized for 6 weeks at the age of 12. He called to talk, to be told what they were dealing with, to be reassured. I stayed on the phone for almost an hour letting him talk, and telling him as much as I could. He's developed diabetes since we split up, and I know he doesn't cook much. My first instinct, other than to offer to drive the kids to see him, and be as flexible as he needed with visitation, was to cook a bunch of single portion foods that would be okay for a diabetic. I gave him a bunch of stuff when he brought the boys back after the weekend. My kids before this were still telling me about troubles between him and his wife. They were still coming home upset about their attitude toward my husband and I. And yet, even before she went in the hospital, my heart ached for both of them. You see, by all the current pop psychology, feminism, and other such drivel, I'd be perfectly within my rights to hate him. But, I don't. I'll always love him, he'll always be family, and I'll always love her too, because she's family as well. And my heart will always break for their pain, and rejoice with their joy. Okay, so what's the point of those stories, and what does that have to do with God? God is my Daddy. He loves me just as I love my children, only a thousand times more so. I am his family, and I am grown, and he cannot tell me what to do. He made that rule himself, because until we make our choices for ourselves, we cannot be his friends as well as his children. He wants relationships with us, not child to parent, not God to man, but as equal partners (and no, that's not heresy, and no I don't think I'm a God). To allow that kind of relationship to grow, because he is so much more than we are, he limits himself. He says the choices are ours, including if we want a relationship with him. We have the choice to go live with someone else. We have the choice to yell at him, belittle him, to be cruel to him, or to others. But he loves us anyway, and he aches for us, just as I ache for my children when things happen in their lives that hurt them, and I can't stop it. He loves us anyway, just as I love my ex-husband when his fear and anger and insecurities cut him off from the people who love him, and when harm comes to him that he can't protect himself from, and I can't stop it. God is love. That's one of my very favorite bible verses. He can no more stop loving a single one of us, believer or not, than we can stop breathing and still be alive. And he loves us more deeply and completely than most of us are capable of loving, because he knows everything in us, and can love all of it, see all of it, know who we will one day be. I can only imagine the slimmest glimpse of what that love must be like for him. Because he loves me, and cannot stop, and because he has given me the gift of freedom, he also gave me the power to break his heart not once, but daily, hourly, right down to the second. Because we were made in his image, and we weep when our hearts break, he has given me the power to make him weep, not for himself, but for me, for my pain, for my fear, for my sorrow, for my anger, and my shame. You have all hinted around the idea of why Christians do good things, or should try to live a good life. For me, this is why, when I do something that will bring me harm, I make God cry. When I do something that will cause someone else harm, I make God weep. When I do things, that we call sin, that come between myself and his love for me, I break his heart, and I make my life less full. So, I try not to do those things. Sometimes, I fail. And each time I do, I still hold his peace in my heart, because I know that all I have to do is cry out "Daddy", and he will take my hand, wipe my tears, fill my heart, and hold me close until the next time I fall. That is my truth. That is what lets me dare any dream, gives me the freedom to be who I am, and to share it with you and anyone else who will listen, without fear of what you may think. That I am fully known and still fully loved is truth, and it has set me free. That's all on this for now. Please don't fall into the same concerns as on the other thread. If you have something to question, to argue, to comment about on this particular post, I won't take offense, and I won't shut you down. The idea is a discussion. If you don't, that's okay too. I'll be back to chat about some of the rest of the thread later on. Good night, and God Bless (even if you don't particularly believe in him).
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Post by Lady Dark Moon on Sept 13, 2008 11:17:11 GMT -5
ladytera, I'd just like to say that you embody the Christian who, from this agnostic/atheist's perspective, every Christian should aspire to be. I admire that you keep your calm and (for the most part) don't try to convert us.
All Christians should love God for love itself. There's nothing I detest more than the old cripple who, nearing the end of his/her life, abruptly realizes that there's no heaven waiting. Thus, along comes religion and hopefully a nice, sugary afterlife. It happens. I observe it happening all the time.
I generally have nothing against the Christian concept of God. Life is short. If Christianity makes you happy, sure why not. As for me, I can never make up my mind about what I believe. An open mind is the way to go.
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Post by keyodie on Sept 14, 2008 15:58:16 GMT -5
Okay, I posted something, and you may have already read it, but I got a little more personal and in detail than I really wanted to... So I'll post an edited version. Eventually.
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Post by ladytera on Sept 14, 2008 16:03:55 GMT -5
Okay, I posted something, and you may have already read it, but I got a little more personal and in detail than I really wanted to... So I'll post an edited version. Eventually. We will patiently await whatever you wish to share.
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Post by ladytera on Sept 26, 2008 0:18:15 GMT -5
I have to admit I'm a bit too harsh on religion sometimes, but that's mainly because when I think religion, I'm always thinking of the extremists I've run into. Also, it can cause some people to be close-minded about certain subjects. I submit that is not the religion that causes these things, but the people who use this as an excuse for these things. Yep. Which is why I don't particularly subscribe to the idea that hell is a place filled with horrors, but a state of existence in the absence of God. You and Ammy both had me laughing like crazy with these comments. ;D Christian faith, to me anyhow, is actually a combination of several of these. In particular, 1,2,3 (the first part), and 4. 5 is kind of funny though. Christianity is NOT faith, it is the religious system based on the Bible. The faith is the foundation of the system, but not the system itself (if that makes any sense). I'll get to the rest in a bit.
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Post by ladytera on Sept 26, 2008 1:18:28 GMT -5
Not really. True Atheists have absolute faith that there is no God, despite an absence of proof, and an absence of science. Theory is a theory, and it does not have to be proven before it is disproven, all theory, if stated as true, without first being proven, are simply a matter of faith. Well, unless you're talking about things similar to your examples. The things like those examples, including yours, are absolute functions of faith as well. We may have good reason to believe that the sun will rise, that gravity will persist, or that Ammy's cat really is just a cat, and your water is really just water, but until we get to the next sunrise, the end of the world, the passing of the cat, and the surviving of the water, we don't really know, and we can't really prove it, we can only say that based upon our observations, and the observations of others, up to this moment, these things will probably be true. That's faith, at its most basic. Actually it depends more on your definition of religion. None of the ones at dictionary.com actually refer specifically to a belief in a God, only a set of beliefs, which would define Atheism as a religion. You're probably a little right here. Faith (not necessarily religion), is an entirely personal relationship. Independent of religion. It is each individuals personal relationship with their God. The beauty of Christianity (and please understand that I still stipulate that organized religion can and too often does hamper this) is that when it is practiced as the Bible says it should be, it is the only religion that not only accommodates, but also promotes the idea of that individual, personal relationship with God. Thank you again for your lovely thoughts.
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Post by misaki on Sept 26, 2008 2:14:28 GMT -5
Uhm, not replying to anyone in particular, but I just felt I should say something about my earlier posts. They sound a little too...attacking? You see, I have an intense dislike of anything tha limits one's freedom in whatever way. And yes, I do think Christianity limits people's freedom, because they are told from some old book what to think right/wrong, good/evil, basically, how they should see the world. However, I think it's a little hypocrite to say that now, since well, that's what most religions do. Religions are, generally, about telling people what to think. Even the so-called liberal 'religions' as Wicca are, in a way. ( uhm, meaning traditional Wicca here, not the more universal term many Pagans adopt. ) That's probably why I won't ever be religious as such But yeah, I realised that the fact that Christianity is a religion, and an old one, makes the limitations sort of obvious. I mean, duh. If they didn't tell you what to believe, it could hardly be called a religion. I'd also like to add that I have encountered so many fundamentalist Christians in the past...that no liberal, independent Christian should feel attacked; my rambling about limitations was more about those very strictly fundamentalist believers. I do really dislike the church though. I already stated my arguments against it. I don't dislike Christianity as a faith though, and that may not have been entirely clear.
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Post by ladytera on Sept 26, 2008 3:32:27 GMT -5
Aerlinn,
No harm no foul, as far as I'm concerned. And you didn't seem attacking particularly, more strongly convicted of your beliefs. As to restrictions and such, true and absolute freedom, in the sense that you mean here, is an illusion. It there were no rules, there could be no order, no civilization. Whether the rules come from religion, government, or the universe in general (i.e. gravity, inertia, etc.), there are an always will be restrictions on our actions of some kind.
When dealing with fundamentalists, I can understand your discomfort. It's probably akin to the discomfort they feel at your vehement denial of their beliefs (and that is not a criticism). Strong convictions, expressed as absolutes, are always difficult to be confronted with. I am no less convicted in my beliefs than the folks you're referring to, and my beliefs are probably not a lot different than theirs. However, I am confident enough in that conviction to hear another point of view without freaking out, which is why I'm here, and may, perhaps, be why they are not.
This brings up an interesting thought process though, that I'd like to explore with all of you here. I've got to get back to work, but I'll try to come back in a bit on that.
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Post by ladytera on Sept 26, 2008 6:23:00 GMT -5
ladytera, I'd just like to say that you embody the Christian who, from this agnostic/atheist's perspective, every Christian should aspire to be. I admire that you keep your calm and (for the most part) don't try to convert us. All Christians should love God for love itself. There's nothing I detest more than the old cripple who, nearing the end of his/her life, abruptly realizes that there's no heaven waiting. Thus, along comes religion and hopefully a nice, sugary afterlife. It happens. I observe it happening all the time. I generally have nothing against the Christian concept of God. Life is short. If Christianity makes you happy, sure why not. As for me, I can never make up my mind about what I believe. An open mind is the way to go. Thank you, LDM. Like every other Christian, and every one else for that matter, I'm flawed, and I fall and I fail. But, that's okay too. As to the cripple, or anyone else, who finds God at the end of their lives, I can see your point. On the other hand, I have a little more charitable view toward those folks, and an awful lot of faith in God's powers of transformation. So, while it may appear a last minute Hail Mary to us, it's never too late to admit that you're wrong. God tends to reach us in our darkest hour, perhaps because the depth of darkness makes his light so much clearer. I prefer to pray that even those souls who come late to redemption find the peace they seek, and I have faith that their prayers do not fall on deaf ears.
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Post by ladytera on Sept 26, 2008 6:59:18 GMT -5
A common theme in the objections to organized religion here, and elsewhere, seems to be the judgmental attitudes of people involved in churches, and the tendency to preach. It occurs to me that there is perhaps a reason that I didn't understand until after I fell away from the church and finally came back. We are all broken, in some way or another. There is darkness, fear, loneliness, rage, and hatred in each of us at some point in our lives. Each of us has our tragedies and triumphs. And yet, few of us ever see that in the people around us. This is as much true in church as it is at work, in school, or often even within our own families. Each and every one of us is always and ever alone inside ourselves. We can sit in a crowd or among friends, chattering away, participating in the events around us, and yet, there is a place inside us all that is never touched by another soul. By our own design, we cut ourselves off from truly knowing one another. That aloneness leads us to feel a little insecure, a little inadequate, and a little fearful. So, when we go into a church (or anywhere else for that matter), we put on our game face, and pretend that we've got it all together. In church, you're a "Christian", so you should be strong, and happy, and above the worldly problems that face the rest of the mere mortals that share the planet with you. We do this, not out of a sense of superiority, but out of a sense that it's what's expected, and we have to set the example. So, when someone who doesn't believe as we do comes in, they see a bunch of people that are trying desperately to be seen as the perfect "Christians". Preachers are taught to preach within the guidelines of their doctrine, and rarely touch on the depth of the experiences that called them to teach God's word. So, sitting in the pews, with confusion, fear, and sorrow in your heart, you look out on the sea of perfection around you, and feel completely out of place. Even thought the guy sitting next to you is suffering through the breakup of his marriage, and goes home and cries himself to sleep at night. The girl three rows up is struggling with a drug addiction, and is twitching for her next fix. The lady in the front row just lost her father, and hasn't quit crying in a week. You don't see the imperfections because we're taught to live up to expectations. Then you run into a problem, and ask for advice, or share your trouble with someone who believes, and they tell you what the Bible says. But, as you say, it's just an old book, what relevance does it have to you? And because that person is afraid, angry, wary, and alone in their heart, they cannot share with you the reasons they have faith in what they are sharing with you. They cannot tell you that they too once hated God, because they lost someone dear to them. They cannot tell you that they too wandered lost and afraid because their lives had fallen apart, they'd been beaten and broken, and through their struggle they found peace. They cannot share the foundations that make the Bible, the doctrine, the church, a natural outgrowth of their faith, rather than a forced structure they function within. A few years ago, I could not have shared what had gone on during the break up of my last marriage. But how can I tell you God is love, that he fills me with his love, and gives me the strength to forgive and love those who have hurt me, and expect that to have any credence, if I don't also share the darkness in my own soul that led me to him? I cannot share the miracle of God and his hand in my life, without also sharing the reasons I needed a miracle. I was blessed. I found a church shortly after my marriage broke up that taught me something that I hadn't learned before. God is all about relationships. Not just our relationships with him, but with eachother. He doesn't want us to be Sunday morning Christians. And he doesn't want us to go out and preach his word. He wants us to be a shining light for those out in the darkness. He wants to fill us up with his light so that wherever we go, by our stories, by our relationships, by our examples, we bring his light to those who are lost, angry, tired, afraid and alone. I also learned something from church I was going to during that break up. As I sat amongst the congregants, in a very traditional church, and cried silent tears, still inside my walls, there were those around me who reached out to take the burdens I was carrying. Even amongst the shiny happy people, they are willing to share themselves, they usually just have to know there's a need. So, when dealing with fundamentalists, evangelicals, or any other very in your face kinds of Christians, take an opportunity to get to know the scared and lonely person underneath, and you might find they aren't such bad folks after all. Another point I wanted to touch on, because it's been questioned a bit. Salvation. I've been asked "You really just have to accept Christ as your savior, and then boom you're on the way to heaven?" My answer was, yep. And, as far as it goes, that's true. What is a little harder to explain, is what happens next. First and foremost, you've got to mean it, or it doesn't count. But, what you have to understand from there, is that God will change you. He will turn you inside out, upside down, and sideways. He will take all the things that make you and shape them into what you are meant to be. Sometimes that is a really painful process. Sometimes, you take it back, and try once again to go your own way, and muck it all up again. What that acceptance does is give God your permission to work in your life, to pull out all those dark places inside you and sweep them clean. To take all the pain and heartache in your life and turn it into something good. But what it also means is that you have to face all that pain and heartache, all those dark places, see them, accept them, and let go of them, and that is not an easy thing for most of us to do. The good thing is, we're always works in progress, so no matter how much we might backslide, no matter how much you may try to hold onto the weights that hold you down, God keeps right on working with you. The other really cool thing is that you no longer have to face all those demons on your own, because not only do you have God's help directly, you also have the help of all the people he puts in your life to share with, connect with, and have relationships with. As to the sugary afterlife that several of you have mentioned, and disparaged as being kind of boring, I don't particularly think that's what heaven is. I'm not really sure what it is, actually, but I'd have to say that I don't think it would be boring, or it really wouldn't be heaven would it? I'll have to think a little more on that. I've gotta get some sleep. I'll probably only be touching base a little later today for a minute or two here. I've got to get up bright and early tomorrow for a camping trip, and then I have a meeting with my oldest sun Sunday afternoon, and then I've got to work, so I'm gonna be slammed 'til Monday. I hope this gives you all something to chew on until then.
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Hravan
Journeyman
Life is a Musical
Posts: 106
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Post by Hravan on Sept 26, 2008 19:55:58 GMT -5
Ok, I've read most of this thread and quite a lot of my questions have already been answered so thank you.. To go back to the original question... I'm not actually sure what Christianity means to me. I'm not going to go into the resentment I have for Christianity because I'll just get incredibly angry and I don't need it right now.... I do have some questions stemming from this resentment that I've had since I was 7 years old but I'll ask them at a later date... Anyhoo.... Overall, Christianity to me, does not make sense. Not at all. I can't get my head around it. The following are questions that I've had from a very young age and nobody has ever been able to answer them in a way that satisfies me. These questions are from 4/5 years old me so that's why they're pretty childlike... Here goes. Why doesn't the Christian God have a wife/partner/whatever? I look in nature and everywhere there is a male and a female force needed to create life. The Christian God is most certainly male according to every teaching I've ever come across so therefore where is the female force that is needed to create life as well? You need both male and female forces to create pretty much most life. Next, what is this thing about non-human animals not have souls and therefore not being able to go to Heaven? What happens to them? I could never understand (as a child) why if a person died everyone would say "You'll see them again in Heaven". Even in Sunday school we were told that we would see people again in Heaven yet when our dogs/cats/rats/hamsters/rabbits/birds/Guinea pigs died, that was it. Nada. Never seeing them again because they're not important enough to go to Heaven. BUT I was still told that I would see them again even though I was also told that non-human animals have no soul so nothing happens to them after they die, so how am I meant to see them again? And I think that pretty much sums up why Christianity makes no sense to me whatsoever. Those are my two main problems that I've had throughout my life. Reading back I know they are very childlike but I stopped looking for answers in Christianity when I was 11. The next question came about when I was taking part in the Alpha course. I didn't want to do it but I "had" to be confirmed and the only way was to take part in the Alpha course. Actually the best thing that I've ever been made to do. Did the course then stopped going to church and finally realised that I didn't really believe in any of it. This is going back to the whole Heaven/Hell debate that's been going on in this thread. From what I gather Christianity is basically accepting Jesus' teachings and accepting him into your heart and then you'll go to Heaven. If you don't, you go to Hell (whatever that is- barren wasteland/burning fires/whatever but generally a worst place than Heaven right?) So what about all those people before Jesus? What happened to them? What about all those characters in the Old Testament. Noah... pretty nice guy right? Always been told that he's in Heaven but you can only get into Heaven if you accept Jesus! And he was before Jesus so how could he be in Heaven? That's why the Jews don't go to Heaven because they refuse to accept Jesus as the son of god etc. And Noah and the other Old Testament characters were all Jewish so they can't be in Heaven because there is no way they could accept Jesus as Jesus wasn't around then.... Yeah... the Alpha course was basically "You have to accept Jesus otherwise you won't go to Heaven and you'll go to Hell which is this great big burning pit of fire". [sarcasm]I love the Church of England... I really do... [/sarcasm]
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Larael
Student
"Does the Walker choose the Path, or does the Path choose the Walker?"
Posts: 24
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Post by Larael on Sept 26, 2008 20:52:33 GMT -5
I guess I'm just going to jump in here for a bit and hope I don't get burned in the process. As many of you may know, I am a Christian, born and raised. To be honest, I'm quite proud of that fact considering how many times in my life my faith and devotion has been tested. I'm not really sure how to explain my faith very well and I suppose that's a good thing. Faith really is an indescribable thing. All I know is that God sent his son down to save the world their sins and that through His death I am given grace and the hope of eternal life with Him. With that grace I am to go out and spread that grace to others through my words and actions thus praising the Lord in everything I do. So, that's just a bit about my beliefs. Now I'd like to take a stab at answering a few questions. Please bear with me. I'm only 17 and am still building my faith and my relationship with Christ. I certainly don't have the same sort of wisdom ladytera has, but I shall try my best. I've only got a moment so I think I'll try and answer your first question, Hravan about why God doesn't have a wife/partner/etc. To be honest I don't think anyone will ever have an answer for this. We don't even know if God really is male or if He's female. Doctrine states he is male because Jesus always made references to him as the Father, but at the same time, many of the accounts in the Bible were highly influenced by the time period in which they were written when women were of a lesser status than men and were most likely not written about as much. We can't go off what Jesus says for sure though. He is, after all God's son, and could have been born a girl or a king or even a beggar. So much could have happened, and there is so much we don't really know. I'm sorry I can't help you on that question much. Maybe ladytera will phrase things better.
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Post by ladytera on Sept 28, 2008 23:25:16 GMT -5
Larael, thank you. I'm still silly and young enough to find it odd to be called wise. But I'm glad someone thinks so (will you tell my kids please, they won't believe me). I only have a second. So, hravan, you made me LMAO, and I will get back to you in a more serious manner later today, when I have a bit of time.
Larael, I wanted to answer the question in your avatar space though, as it seemed kind of apt in this thread. The answer is always both.
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Post by ladytera on Sept 29, 2008 5:21:30 GMT -5
Welcome to the conversation! I will not preach to you that you should bare your soul, and thus save it. I will say, though, that a lot of times getting a different perspective on the things that have hurt us in our live, from open minded folks like we have here, can help up work through and move past them. It nothing else, it's often good for relieving stress. So, if and when you ever feel like sharing your resentments, or the questions and events that created them, we'll be happy to lend an ear. Until, I'll stick with what you did ask about. Actually, while the phrasing may seem childlike to you, the questions aren't. God does have a wife/partner/whatever. In Christianity, it is talked about in terms of the Trinity. There's God the Father, The Holy Spirit, and The Son. God the Father, in simplistic terms, is the strength, the force, what we would typically associate with the male aspect. The Holy Spirit is the essence, the emotion, the intuitive, what we would typically associate with the female aspect. The Son was the combining of the two aspects into flesh to complete the circle of relationship that was begun with Adam and Eve. I cannot point you at the Scriptures that tell you this, I'm not sure they are there. But, as has been mentioned, the Bible was written and translated in a very male dominated society, and not much is spoken of the Holy Spirit, in anything other than the ephemeral sense. When you get to the idea of the three-in-one concept, it can get a little confusing for the mere mortals among us, such as myself, but I recently read a book called The Shack, that does a good job of putting the concept into perspective. The entire point of our creation, the crucification, the resurrection, and all that, from God's point of view, was to create relationship. He desired to create relationship with us, because he already has relationship with himself, in his different aspects. They are separate, but equal, and connected entities, thus, the three-in-one. That doesn't quite explain it entirely, but in a brief post, that's the best I can do. If you want to get a better grasp of that concept, I'd recommend the book to you. It's definitely a Christian story, but it's not a preachy story, and it offers a unique and interesting view, even for someone who either doesn't believe, or is extremely pissed at God. This one is both easier, and harder. I think it all comes down to what heaven is. I guess the best way to describe how the two very contradictory concepts you were taught would be that heaven is not barred to lesser beings. There is nothing to say that only those with a soul would be allowed to exist in heaven, just that they would be the only beings elevated to a relationship with God in that place. I'd imagine that dogs, cats, hamsters, etc. would exist there much the same as they would exist here. As to why a "lesser being" such as that would be welcomed into heaven, let me pose a question. Was the dog, cat, rats, etc. important to you? If God loves you, then why wouldn't he let you keep the things that are important to you, and be sure the take care of them for you until you arrived? Perhaps the same way your parent would feed and care for your pet when you go away to summer camp. Now, I have to qualify this by saying, I really don't know what the Bible might have to say on the subject. But it does talk a lot about God creating flowers, birds, etc., and how much care he took with them, so I'd figure he places some value on them, and would want them in his world as well as ours. Sounds similar to the process in the Catholic Church. I never really did get the point myself. I can actually give you an answer to this one! I'd guess the Alpha course (assume it's kind of like CCD for the Catholics) probably focused on the fire and brimstone parts of the Old Testament, as object lessons, and then mostly focused on the New Testament as far as your relationship with God goes nowadays. But, that approach misses something in the Old Testament. If you read through it (and I have say, again, that I haven't read it all), in the Jewish faith, you could still go to heaven. Through behavior, sacrifice and atonement, and through the mediation of your priests (I guess they'd be rabbis now, but they were always referred as the priests in the parts I read). The coming of Jesus was the promised New Covenant, to replace the old ways. The best interpretation I can give you there is that over time, people built of rites and rituals around the ideas of good works, sacrifice and atonement that made them feel better about themselves, but moved them further from God. So he sent his son to remove those barriers that the people had put up, and to give them a simple and direct path to a relationship with him. Now, of course, since then, we've gone ahead, as humans tend to do, and erected new rites and rituals to put barriers between God. The Catholic church continued the premise that only the priest and the saints could speak directly to God, you couldn't just talk to him yourself. Each of the protestant religions that eventually came out of that have taken some degree of those rites and rituals too, and some have even added more. But, when it comes right down to what the Bible says, rather than what your church doctrine may teach, Jesus is the head priest, and the only intercessor you need. He came and taught us to pray the Lords prayer, which begins with Abba (we translate it to Our Father, but it means daddy), and told us the new covenant meant we didn't need the intercessors, and we didn't need the rights and rituals, we simply needed an open and humble heart. As for the Jews that came after Christ, they follow the Old Covenant. And the Bible states in both parts that they are God's chosen, so, as I've said elsewhere, while I may not understand how the idea that Christ is the only way to heaven, and the idea that eventually we'll all end up there (Revelations does actually seem to say that, once you get through the drama and allegory), I fully believe that God understands the fullness of his plan, and he has those details worked out that may have gotten a little muddies in the translation.
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