dark
Student
Woah.
Posts: 16
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Post by dark on Sept 28, 2008 15:53:37 GMT -5
I thought I'd open up this can of worms for everyone.
As a woman, I would like to say one thing: Your Church My Uterus
That is all.
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Post by Bubba's Dad on Sept 28, 2008 16:55:43 GMT -5
Do you read car bumper stickers a lot?
It's not about "church". I believe in these words: We are endowed by our creator with certain inalienably rights, that among these are LIFE, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
If Row vs. Wade is based on a woman's Constitutional "right" to privacy during medical procedures then why do medical personnel have to notify the police if anyone comes in with a gun shot wound. Dose not a gun shot victim also have a "right" to privacy?
Why is it that parent notification is required on every medical procedure involving a minor except for an abortion. A minor may not cross state lines or get a tattoo on her own body without parental permission, yet she can cross state lines to end the life of a baby.
Women expect/demand equal rights yet they are not required to inform the babies father about the abortion, yet if she alone decides to continue with the pregnancy, then the father is rightfully held to financial responsibility. In either case, mutual consent ends the morning after.
Just a couple of my thoughts on it.
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Post by keyodie on Sept 28, 2008 17:38:43 GMT -5
Abortion for me is a very hard subject to understand. There are times when I think about it and say to myself, killing babies! Wow. That's horrible. And I think that's a pretty natural response for anybody. Most of us humans wish that we could act strictly on our morals, and that all of our actions could result in the saving of lives and not the losses. But we all know that that's not always the case. That's when I start thinking about it realistically and from more of an objective point of view, and I'm going to have to say I'm pro-choice.
Someone has said previously that pro-choice should really be called pro-abortion, and I vehemently disagree. If I were to somehow end up pregnant tomorrow, abortion would be the last thing I would want. This is a tough choice for anyone. People who are pro-choice don't enjoy killing unborn babies, they just think that the woman has the right to decide. "Pro-abortion" implies that if a woman becomes pregnant, no matter what the circumstances, people who have this point of view will think that abortion is the best course of action. Obviously, this is not true.
People who are seriously considering abortion, for the most part, have a good reason for doing so. They may not be able to support the child, and if they were to have the baby both her and the baby's lives will be destroyed. They may be irresponsible or unable to raise a child, which would lead to horrible lives for both of them. And of course, there are the cases of incest and rape. Think about it... a few wrinkly old guys ordering a young woman with her whole life ahead of her to bear the baby and the evidence of her attacker.
Not only can the birth of a child destroy your life, if it is born into the wrong circumstances, it will most likely bring another unhappy person into the world. Like I said before, if someone is considering something like abortion, there's probably a good reason for it.
ETA: Bubba's Dad, all of those hypocrisies that you mentioned is based off of the theory that life begins at conception. I don't know the answer to the question of when life starts, but I just thought I should mention that.
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sakaido
Journeyman
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Posts: 111
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Post by sakaido on Sept 28, 2008 18:03:16 GMT -5
I concur with everything Keyodie said.
I don't believe men should have any right to have say in the pregnant mothers choice unless they're married.
And yes, the man should be held responsible for the babies life and financial care of it should the girl decide to keep it. The man had just as much opprotunity to use protection as the girl did.
Accidents happen. Of course. Not many people want to have to live with a mistake they made while having a good time. Or to be forced to have the child. The mother could resent it. How do you think the child would grow up? Hardly cared for or loved... Thats not a good life for a child.
There is of course adoption. But soooo many children go unadopted. Moving from one foster home to another. It's really unhealthy for the childs development.
I could go on and on.... I'll leave it here.
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Post by Bubba's Dad on Sept 28, 2008 18:56:32 GMT -5
OK, Keyodie, Some thoughts.
Some think life starts when the fetis has blood pumping through its body, at about three weeks.
I personally would would like it if the cut off for an abortion was no farther along then the 1st trimester.
Not all of the hypocrisies are based on when life starts. The R.v.W. never mentions conception or a time line, and could in fact be applied to any medical attention including gun shot wounds. Rather or not life starts at conception, or when the child is born, the father has no choice in the pro-choice world. In an equal rights pro-choice world the father could decide at eight months that paying for or raising a child with the woman would be too hard and ruin not only his life but two others by bringing into the world another unhappy person, and choose to abort the child. My point about parental permission also has nothing to do with when life starts, at conception or at any other point, the minor can still have this one medical procedure with out consent. As far as me believing in the right to life, in that quote I never mentioned when life starts. Again, from a moral stand point, any abortion is bad, but from a civil stand point before the first trimester could be acceptable to most people.
Now, I have something for sakaido,
If the man had as much of a chance to use protection as the woman then why is his right to chose cut off and the woman's not?
And what is more unhealthy for a child, adoption and possibly moving from home to home, or death?
And no one wants to live live with a mistake they made while having a good time, but it's called being responsible. A drunk drive who wrecks his car and hurts himself or others is held to account, and all he or she did was make a mistake while having a good time.
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Post by keyodie on Sept 28, 2008 22:07:48 GMT -5
Some think life starts when the fetis has blood pumping through its body, at about three weeks. I personally would would like it if the cut off for an abortion was no farther along then the 1st trimester. Isn't that true for most cases already? State governments can take away the right to have an abortion after the first trimester. Around 90% of women who get abortions terminate their pregnancy during their 1st trimester anyway, almost all of them before the fetus's nervous system develops. Not all of the hypocrisies are based on when life starts. The R.v.W. never mentions conception or a time line, and could in fact be applied to any medical attention including gun shot wounds. Gun shot wounds, I think, are of a much different nature than abortion. You would have to notify the police in that situation because there was an act of violence against one that is considered a person under the Constitution by someone that broke the law and could be dangerous to others. Rather or not life starts at conception, or when the child is born, the father has no choice in the pro-choice world. In an equal rights pro-choice world the father could decide at eight months that paying for or raising a child with the woman would be too hard and ruin not only his life but two others by bringing into the world another unhappy person, and choose to abort the child. My point about parental permission also has nothing to do with when life starts, at conception or at any other point, the minor can still have this one medical procedure with out consent. As far as me believing in the right to life, in that quote I never mentioned when life starts. Again, from a moral stand point, any abortion is bad, but from a civil stand point before the first trimester could be acceptable to most people. Sorry about that, I misunderstood. I think, though, that what you said above is more of a "pro-choice world" vs. "equal rights pro-choice world" rather than "pro-choice" vs. "pro-life". The two problems with the "pro-choice world" that you mentioned are just issues to fix and overcome. They are definitely something to think about.
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Larael
Student
"Does the Walker choose the Path, or does the Path choose the Walker?"
Posts: 24
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Post by Larael on Sept 28, 2008 22:30:47 GMT -5
Abortion is a sticky subject. There are so many views and opinions on when abortion could be considered okay, when it most certainly is not, whether it should be a choice for women, etc. that it's nearly impossible not to get confused by it all. I know I am. To be honest, I don't even know where my church stands on the issue. Abortion just isn't something that comes up at youth group. I know that I am pro-life. To me every child is a miracle and a gift from God. However, like with all gifts I believe it is up to you to decide what to do with it, not anyone else. If I became pregnant tomorrow I know I would keep the baby, for numerous reasons. Besides the fact I believe your taking a human life when you abort a pregnancy I also believe it harms the woman's body as well. Abortion goes against nature and what the body is supposed to do, and therefore it isn't natural to me.
I am a firm believer in choice. What a woman wants to do with her body is her business and perhaps her partner's. What annoys me the most is the fact that there are a majority of men in the government trying to pass laws and such to do away with the legality of abortions, yet they don't have any idea what they're really doing. They're not women. They don't know what it's like to be pregnant. They don't know the feeling of having that other life to take care, and the anxiety that some women may feel because they cannot take care of it. When you make anti-abortion laws you may be cutting thousands of women off from doing the right thing. If you know in your heart you can't care for your baby and your okay with letting it go then you should have that option to do so.
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Post by misaki on Sept 29, 2008 8:44:55 GMT -5
I'm not pro-abortion, definitely pro-choice. People trying to pass anti-abortion laws are complete idiots. Don't they ever think of the logical consequence? What do you think is going to happen to unwanted babies, then? Whether your personal idea of the world tells you abortion is wrong or not, there will always be MANY women who do want to get rid of their babies and will. Abortion is nothing new. It didn't start with the clean, nice abortion clinics. It started with poisoning themselves so the baby would die. It started with girls trying to get the baby to come extremely early so it would die. It started with improvised operations and horrible things. Abortion is not something you can simply remove from society, even more so than things like prostitution. The only result of a law against abortion = illegal abortions = non-government controlled, probably non-hygienic clinics and 'doctors' who may end up accidentally ending the mother's life as well. Aside from the practical side of it, I think it's absolutely ridiculous to try to decide that for someone else. I don't think I would ever abort a child. If I get pregnant accidentally, I will bear the consequences. Which is why I try not getting pregnant. gotta love condoms & co. But one of my friends was 15 when she accidentally forgot protection. Guess what happened? Exactly. She got pregnant. I've seen it up close. It is NOT humane to tell a child to become a mum. It's ridiculous. I was SO happy for her when she had the abortion. No, I don't like the idea of ending a life; I'm a vegetarian, so you might be able to imagine that I don't like ending ANY life. But it sometimes really is for the best. This was not directed at me, but.. Have you ever seen a pregnant man? But if a man'd get pregnant, sure, I'd vote for his pro-choice right, sure Well, that only goes if you actually believe in God. Which means you're religious. So calling it 'church' isn't actually that strange, isn't it?
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Post by ladytera on Sept 29, 2008 9:06:57 GMT -5
Actually, that is a direct quote "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." That's the Preamble to the US Constitution, and the foundational principle of the freedoms it protects. What Bubba's Dad was pointing out is that Life is the first of the unalienable rights that men are created with, however you think they may have been created, that no man or government is allowed to deprive a human of that right without due process of law. Doesn't have anything to do with church or God.
I know you're not from these parts, so figured you might not understand what he was referring to. I'll drop back on this thread when I've got some time.
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dark
Student
Woah.
Posts: 16
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Post by dark on Sept 29, 2008 17:28:38 GMT -5
Abortion goes against nature and what the body is supposed to do, and therefore it isn't natural to me. Doesn't a C-section also go against nature? I just finished reading Macbeth, and a C-Section was completely unnatural to the Elizabethans. @bubba's Dad: You used creator and Church in the same sentence against one another. Does a creator not have a following, and therefore the Church? Or A Church? (And I don't actually. Thanks for asking though, my entire city is pretty much Mormon or Jehova's Witness.)
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sakaido
Journeyman
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Post by sakaido on Sept 29, 2008 17:47:19 GMT -5
I believe it should be left to each individual.Bubba's Dad: If you ever get pregnant[which will never happen, obviously] You can keep that baby.However, I, Who can't even have children, [at least, that's what the doc says. sofarsogood.] Wouldn't do it.
I've been told the stress of being pregnant would set of my manic depression to a new high. Not only would it be bad for the baby, because I can't not take my medication if it gets set off. It would damage me, emotionally, physically... Which could harm the baby even more. Not to mention the domestic dispute that would go down among my family.....
Not all people are like me. Naturally. But the giant list of reasons that could go behind each individuals choice is really none of your business. None of mine. None of anyone's.
Pro-Life people have the right to do whatever they like with their body, baby, life. I'd like to be extended the same right to my choices not to have children. Not for a very long time. Or ever. It should be MY choice. And I firmly believe it's going to stay that way.
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Post by ladytera on Sept 30, 2008 10:03:37 GMT -5
Just a couple of points, if girls and guys have equal rights and RESPONSIBILITIES when it comes to having children, then why should the fact that I am a guy lessen my say in what the mother of my child chooses to do. It may be her body, but it is our child. You girls want it both ways. If a couple has sex and "they" get pregnant then the guy is one the hook for taking responsibility for the baby. But if they have sex, get pregnant and the girl chooses to have an abortion, then the guy has no rights.
But none of that is as important as the babies rights. What about the child's right to chose?
And one other thing, to say I am incapable of understanding this subject fully because I am male is sexist. Would you only go to an OBGYN who is female? And what about female doctors, can they deal fully with ED, testicle caner, or check for prostate problems?
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Post by keyodie on Sept 30, 2008 15:26:04 GMT -5
I'm assuming this is Bubba's Dad and not ladytera, because from my understanding, she's female. xD Just a couple of points, if girls and guys have equal rights and RESPONSIBILITIES when it comes to having children, then why should the fact that I am a guy lessen my say in what the mother of my child chooses to do. It may be her body, but it is our child. You girls want it both ways. If a couple has sex and "they" get pregnant then the guy is one the hook for taking responsibility for the baby. But if they have sex, get pregnant and the girl chooses to have an abortion, then the guy has no rights. Could you elaborate/explain a little more on the "if a couple has sex and they get pregnant then the guy is one the hook for taking responsibility for the baby." part? I'm not sure I understand. But none of that is as important as the babies rights. What about the child's right to chose? At this point, the fetus is not a child. It is not capable of making a decision on its own. You cannot talk to a fetus, and you cannot make it understand the concept of life and death. That's a pretty weak argument in my opinion. And yes, I do realize that saying a fetus is not a child sounds a bit cold on my part. But like I mentioned before, you have to think of this issue in a realistic/objective light. And one other thing, to say I am incapable of understanding this subject fully because I am male is sexist. Would you only go to an OBGYN who is female? And what about female doctors, can they deal fully with ED, testicle caner, or check for prostate problems? I do not think that at all, but let's not start throwing the word 'sexist' around. It could go both ways, and it can get very touchy.
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Gil
Apprentice
teh spazzy queen
Posts: 54
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Post by Gil on Sept 30, 2008 16:09:43 GMT -5
Oh dear. I love debating this one, but at the same time I hate it because I think most people have already formed their opinion and are going to very adamantly stand by it =P
I am pro-life in absolutely ALL situations except in the situation where the mother's life is in endanger - in that case I believe that it is her right to choose because it is the choice between one life and another.
My reasoning?
-I believe that life begins at conception, and I think that the longer science continues to delve into this subject, the more clear it will be come. And if life begins at conception, how is abortion ever legal? It would be murder if we could all agree on when life started.
-I don't think rape/incest victims should have the right to an abortion because really (this is going to sound very cold - just to warn you all), the argument that they will have to "live with the memory of that terrible experience" ect is just an argument based on emotions. Just because they will have to live with the "reminder" of that experience doesn't mean that they can automatically do something that someone else cannot do (this is all if abortion was illegal for everyone else). Also, from a religious standpoint, I believe that God has a plan for ALL life, and he wants that child born, even if it came out of a terrible situation. We will never know what the child could do if we don't let it live: find a cure for cancer, become a President, ect. Also, even though rape/incest victims may think of the child as a scar or reminder of their experience, abortion also can cause psychological damage (http://www.abortionfacts.com/reardon/who_is_at_risk_of_pas.asp) as well as physical damage - abortion can reduce your likelihood of becoming pregnant again, and other medical difficulties can arise because of it.
-This is more for 2nd or 3rd semester abortions, but the court has already ruled that life begins, if not at conception, then before birth. Anyone remember Scott Pederson? He was charged for the murder of his wife AS WELL AS the murder of their unborn child. How more clear cut do you need it?
-Adoption is a huge option. Sure, a lot of kids end up in foster care and end up living unhappy lives. But there are lots of options when it comes to adoption - and you have 9 months to work it out! You can have an open adoption, pick the parents of your child, and still visit the child if you want! You could have a closed adoption and never see the parents again. And even if the child does end up in foster care, who is to say that just because it isn't an ideal living situation, the child doesn't even deserve the chance to live?
-A very good argument against pro-life, I agree, is that if abortions were illegal, then there would be an increase in unsafe, "back-alley" (or whatever you want to cal it =P) abortions. Well, isn't there a consequence like that to any law? We don't write laws fearing the consequences of those who choose not to obey. [Many] Drugs are illegal, and therefore many people will do extreme, violent, and dangerous things to get them, but we aren't going to legalize heroine, cocaine, methamphetamine, ect, because of that. If woman decide to get an abortion even though it's illegal then the dangerous consequences of her actions are really her own choice.
-Excluding rape/incest/abuse victims here - everyone had a choice to have sex. To use protection. And if pregnancy results, that is really a consequence. Yes, sometimes protection fails, but if you really don't want to get pregnant, then just don't have sex! It is hard, yes, but it's not impossible. The fact that someone would choose their own pleasure over another's life disturbs me.
OK, I think that's all I've got for now. =P
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Post by keyodie on Sept 30, 2008 17:49:49 GMT -5
Alright, I'll get to the rest of your post when I'm not so sleepy, but I'll just address one point. Also, from a religious standpoint, I believe that God has a plan for ALL life, and he wants that child born, even if it came out of a terrible situation. We will never know what the child could do if we don't let it live: find a cure for cancer, become a President, ect. Also, even though rape/incest victims may think of the child as a scar or reminder of their experience, abortion also can cause psychological damage (http://www.abortionfacts.com/reardon/who_is_at_risk_of_pas.asp) as well as physical damage - abortion can reduce your likelihood of becoming pregnant again, and other medical difficulties can arise because of it. I've heard a lot of "What if the child was going to grow up to cure cancer?", and it all sounds a bit unrealistic to me. Not a very strong argument in my opinion. The child will most likely grow up to be the average person, and sure, they might grow up to be a president or a scientist that can cure cancer. But, they might grow up to be a serial killer or another Hitler. It could go both ways.
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Hravan
Journeyman
Life is a Musical
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Post by Hravan on Sept 30, 2008 17:59:33 GMT -5
I'm pro-choice...
I have absolutely NO right whatsoever to try to dictate what other people should do with their lives based upon MY religious beliefs.
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dark
Student
Woah.
Posts: 16
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Post by dark on Sept 30, 2008 18:14:20 GMT -5
Alright, I'll get to the rest of your post when I'm not so sleepy, but I'll just address one point. Also, from a religious standpoint, I believe that God has a plan for ALL life, and he wants that child born, even if it came out of a terrible situation. We will never know what the child could do if we don't let it live: find a cure for cancer, become a President, ect. Also, even though rape/incest victims may think of the child as a scar or reminder of their experience, abortion also can cause psychological damage (http://www.abortionfacts.com/reardon/who_is_at_risk_of_pas.asp) as well as physical damage - abortion can reduce your likelihood of becoming pregnant again, and other medical difficulties can arise because of it. I've heard a lot of "What if the child was going to grow up to cure cancer?", and it all sounds a bit unrealistic to me. Not a very strong argument in my opinion. The child will most likely grow up to be the average person, and sure, they might grow up to be a president or a scientist that can cure cancer. But, they might grow up to be a serial killer or another Hitler. It could go both ways. I completely agree here. I would also like to say that someone else would eventually come along and solve the same problem. Many of the big scientific discoveries are discovered by two or more people, and then there's a big debate about who diesocvered it first. And the evil dictator thing is also possible. They could be the next serial killer, award winning actor or the next guy who lives a completely normal life.
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Hravan
Journeyman
Life is a Musical
Posts: 106
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Post by Hravan on Sept 30, 2008 18:29:16 GMT -5
Ok.... I'm just going to throw this in....
So if God has a plan for ALL life, they why is it not possible that he plans for people to have abortions? Maybe the woman who is pregnant is destined to do some great thing but if she has the baby then she wouldn't be able to do what God had planned for her? Maybe having an abortion is part of God's plan for her as part of her journey in life. And if God has planned out everyone's life, and so death, then why can't he have planned the abortions of the foetuses. Maybe that's when God decided they should cease to exist. Maybe that is his plan for them.
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Gil
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teh spazzy queen
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Post by Gil on Sept 30, 2008 18:42:16 GMT -5
keyodie & dark - you have a good point there, and I agree, that is not a very strong argument. I was just throwing it in there as something to think about. Hravan - Well, I'm pretty sure that God would not condone abortions because He's the one who allows a woman to get pregnant in the first place. Not to mention there are verses in the Bible that state that life starts before birth (there's one in Psalms...I'll have to look it up later - something like "I knew you in your mother's womb" or something...), as well as verses saying murder is wrong, so put them together and you get abortion is wrong. There may even be verses directly related to abortion, although I haven't tried looking for them. Maybe I'll do that.
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Hravan
Journeyman
Life is a Musical
Posts: 106
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Post by Hravan on Sept 30, 2008 19:07:59 GMT -5
Hravan - Well, I'm pretty sure that God would not condone abortions because He's the one who allows a woman to get pregnant in the first place. Not to mention there are verses in the Bible that state that life starts before birth (there's one in Psalms...I'll have to look it up later - something like "I knew you in your mother's womb" or something...), as well as verses saying murder is wrong, so put them together and you get abortion is wrong. There may even be verses directly related to abortion, although I haven't tried looking for them. Maybe I'll do that. Ok, firstly, abortion is not classified as murder.. You may believe that it's murder but it not. Just as I believe killing non-human animals is murder it's not classified as murder. (And, before anyone jumps down my throat, No, I'm not comparing foetuses to non-human animals... It's just an example....) Secondly: " because He's the one who allows a woman to get pregnant in the first place". The point I'm trying to make is what if it's part of God's plan for a woman to become pregnant and then to have an abortion as part of his plan for her life? If God has planned out everyone's life then if a woman gets pregnant and has an abortion then it has to be part of his plan because he's had her life planned out, like you said, from when she was in her mother's womb. So if God has a plan for eveyone's life then having an abortion is part of your life because he's had it planned for you! For example, if my life has been planned out for me since before I was born (major pro-life argument) therefore everything that happens to me is part of God's plan. So if I get pregnant and I have an abortion then that is what God had planned for me because that's what happened to me.... Therefore it wouldn't be my choice to have an abortion, it would be God's choice because that it what he planned as part of my life... You see... I really don't get the whole "God has a plan for every single life from before they were born so they can't be aborted" because maybe being aborted is part of his plan for their life and death?
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