Gil
Apprentice
teh spazzy queen
Posts: 54
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Post by Gil on Sept 30, 2008 21:57:52 GMT -5
Hravan - Well, I'm pretty sure that God would not condone abortions because He's the one who allows a woman to get pregnant in the first place. Not to mention there are verses in the Bible that state that life starts before birth (there's one in Psalms...I'll have to look it up later - something like "I knew you in your mother's womb" or something...), as well as verses saying murder is wrong, so put them together and you get abortion is wrong. There may even be verses directly related to abortion, although I haven't tried looking for them. Maybe I'll do that. Ok, firstly, abortion is not classified as murder.. You may believe that it's murder but it not. Just as I believe killing non-human animals is murder it's not classified as murder. (And, before anyone jumps down my throat, No, I'm not comparing foetuses to non-human animals... It's just an example....) Secondly: " because He's the one who allows a woman to get pregnant in the first place". The point I'm trying to make is what if it's part of God's plan for a woman to become pregnant and then to have an abortion as part of his plan for her life? If God has planned out everyone's life then if a woman gets pregnant and has an abortion then it has to be part of his plan because he's had her life planned out, like you said, from when she was in her mother's womb. So if God has a plan for eveyone's life then having an abortion is part of your life because he's had it planned for you! For example, if my life has been planned out for me since before I was born (major pro-life argument) therefore everything that happens to me is part of God's plan. So if I get pregnant and I have an abortion then that is what God had planned for me because that's what happened to me.... Therefore it wouldn't be my choice to have an abortion, it would be God's choice because that it what he planned as part of my life... You see... I really don't get the whole "God has a plan for every single life from before they were born so they can't be aborted" because maybe being aborted is part of his plan for their life and death? How is abortion not murder? Like I said, if you're going by what the Bible says - that life starts in the womb, then abortion would be taking a life. Which is what murder is. Show me why you don't think abortion is murder. And I'm not talking from a political perspective because that is something completely different. We are talking biblical here. And there is a HUGE difference between the choices we make and what happens to us, so no, I do not believe that an abortion would be part of God's plan for a woman or her baby. God caused a woman to become pregnant - there is nothing she could do on her own that would 100% guarantee her pregnancy (some things would be very close, but if you were trying so hard to get pregnant, I doubt you'd have an abortion so that point is moot). So the pregnancy was something that happened to her, therefore it could be called God's will/plan. However, having an abortion was the woman's CHOICE. God didn't make her do it. He gave us free will. So no, it wasn't necessarily in His plan for us. He may KNOW what is going to happen to everyone of us, but that doesn't mean it was His WILL. You have to remember that He gave us free will, and unless He takes that away, some things will be our choices, not His will. He will know what happens, but He may not agree with it. If you thought that everything that has every happened was what God specifically wanted, then we wouldn't have free will would we? And that would raise the question of why did he create evil then? And Satan? And war? He didn't create any of those things - they were consequences of sin and man's free will. I feel like I'm beginning to go in circles, so I'll stop for now. But I'm sure I'll think of more to respond to that later. |
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Larael
Student
"Does the Walker choose the Path, or does the Path choose the Walker?"
Posts: 24
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Post by Larael on Sept 30, 2008 22:27:53 GMT -5
Doesn't a C-section also go against nature? I just finished reading Macbeth, and a C-Section was completely unnatural to the Elizabethans. It definitely could be considered unnatural. But again, just like I believe abortion should be a personal choice I also believe C-sections should be a personal choice as well. Some women just can't have a natural birth without complications and must therefore have a C-section for the safety of their own well-being and the baby's. |
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Hravan
Journeyman
Life is a Musical
Posts: 106
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Post by Hravan on Oct 1, 2008 18:32:38 GMT -5
Ok, firstly, abortion is not classified as murder.. You may believe that it's murder but it not. Just as I believe killing non-human animals is murder it's not classified as murder. (And, before anyone jumps down my throat, No, I'm not comparing foetuses to non-human animals... It's just an example....) Secondly: " because He's the one who allows a woman to get pregnant in the first place". The point I'm trying to make is what if it's part of God's plan for a woman to become pregnant and then to have an abortion as part of his plan for her life? If God has planned out everyone's life then if a woman gets pregnant and has an abortion then it has to be part of his plan because he's had her life planned out, like you said, from when she was in her mother's womb. So if God has a plan for eveyone's life then having an abortion is part of your life because he's had it planned for you! For example, if my life has been planned out for me since before I was born (major pro-life argument) therefore everything that happens to me is part of God's plan. So if I get pregnant and I have an abortion then that is what God had planned for me because that's what happened to me.... Therefore it wouldn't be my choice to have an abortion, it would be God's choice because that it what he planned as part of my life... You see... I really don't get the whole "God has a plan for every single life from before they were born so they can't be aborted" because maybe being aborted is part of his plan for their life and death? How is abortion not murder? Like I said, if you're going by what the Bible says - that life starts in the womb, then abortion would be taking a life. Which is what murder is. Show me why you don't think abortion is murder. And I'm not talking from a political perspective because that is something completely different. We are talking biblical here. And there is a HUGE difference between the choices we make and what happens to us, so no, I do not believe that an abortion would be part of God's plan for a woman or her baby. God caused a woman to become pregnant - there is nothing she could do on her own that would 100% guarantee her pregnancy (some things would be very close, but if you were trying so hard to get pregnant, I doubt you'd have an abortion so that point is moot). So the pregnancy was something that happened to her, therefore it could be called God's will/plan. However, having an abortion was the woman's CHOICE. God didn't make her do it. He gave us free will. So no, it wasn't necessarily in His plan for us. He may KNOW what is going to happen to everyone of us, but that doesn't mean it was His WILL. You have to remember that He gave us free will, and unless He takes that away, some things will be our choices, not His will. He will know what happens, but He may not agree with it. If you thought that everything that has every happened was what God specifically wanted, then we wouldn't have free will would we? And that would raise the question of why did he create evil then? And Satan? And war? He didn't create any of those things - they were consequences of sin and man's free will. I feel like I'm beginning to go in circles, so I'll stop for now. But I'm sure I'll think of more to respond to that later. OK, I'm going to try and explain this a different way. One argument that I see pro-lifers using all the time is God has a plan for every life and what if God's plan was for the child was it would find the cure for cancer etc etc. Therefore God has planned that the child will do that but to get to that point of curing cancer that child has to make choices. If God has already planned that the child will cure cancer therefore the child does NOT have free will because God will make sure that the choices the child make will lead it to finding the cure for cancer. That's what I'm saying. If God has planned out your life and knows what will happen to you then you don't have free will! You can't have, because God will make sure that you take the choices because that is what God has planned. "He may KNOW what is going to happen to everyone of us, but that doesn't mean it was His WILL" But it is God's will! Because if it is already know what will happen to you then that is what will happen to you. Your choices are the choices that God wants you to do because that is what God knows you will do! For God to know what will happen to everyone of us then God must know the choices that we will make so it is already pre-determined for us which choices we will make because our life has already been written by God. If God has a plan and knows what will happen to everyone then there is no such thing as free will because our future has already been written. Think of it like characters in a book. God is the author. The characters may think that they have free will and make their own choices but actually it's part of what the author has chosen for them. If it is already known what choices you will make and what will happen in your life then it's not free will. It simply can't be. As for pregnancy being something that happens not a choice.... ummm... it is a choice. If a woman choices to have sex then she choices to run the risk of getting pregnant regardless of whether she uses protection or not. Protection can fail and she runs the risk of that and she chooses to run that risk. The only time pregnancy is something that happens to a woman is in cases of rape and if God has chosen that for her then so much for a loving-God. But then if God has a plan and knows what will happen then he knows the woman will be raped and therefore the choices that she makes in her life will somehow lead her to being raped as she has no choice but to be raped because it has already been mapped out since before she was born that she will raped. (And I am not saying in ANY way here that being raped is the woman's fault - I'm saying it's God's fault because God has known since before she was born that she will be raped. God decided that it will happen to her. ) If God has a plan/knows what will happen to every life before they are born then there is no such thing as Free Will, so having an abortion is part of his plan. Otherwise there is absolutely no logic whatsoever in the whole "God has a plan for every life" argument... As for the abortion being classed as murder.... I'm not talking in a Biblical sense... I'm talking about everyday general, legal classification: Abortion is not murder... The only time abortion is illegal is backstreet and that's because the mother's life is put at major risk... And I'm sorry that this is so long.... I did warn in my introduction post that my posts will ramble, repeat, not be in any order and probably not make sense..... |
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Gil
Apprentice
teh spazzy queen
Posts: 54
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Post by Gil on Oct 1, 2008 21:09:29 GMT -5
How is abortion not murder? Like I said, if you're going by what the Bible says - that life starts in the womb, then abortion would be taking a life. Which is what murder is. Show me why you don't think abortion is murder. And I'm not talking from a political perspective because that is something completely different. We are talking biblical here. And there is a HUGE difference between the choices we make and what happens to us, so no, I do not believe that an abortion would be part of God's plan for a woman or her baby. God caused a woman to become pregnant - there is nothing she could do on her own that would 100% guarantee her pregnancy (some things would be very close, but if you were trying so hard to get pregnant, I doubt you'd have an abortion so that point is moot). So the pregnancy was something that happened to her, therefore it could be called God's will/plan. However, having an abortion was the woman's CHOICE. God didn't make her do it. He gave us free will. So no, it wasn't necessarily in His plan for us. He may KNOW what is going to happen to everyone of us, but that doesn't mean it was His WILL. You have to remember that He gave us free will, and unless He takes that away, some things will be our choices, not His will. He will know what happens, but He may not agree with it. If you thought that everything that has every happened was what God specifically wanted, then we wouldn't have free will would we? And that would raise the question of why did he create evil then? And Satan? And war? He didn't create any of those things - they were consequences of sin and man's free will. I feel like I'm beginning to go in circles, so I'll stop for now. But I'm sure I'll think of more to respond to that later. OK, I'm going to try and explain this a different way. One argument that I see pro-lifers using all the time is God has a plan for every life and what if God's plan was for the child was it would find the cure for cancer etc etc. Therefore God has planned that the child will do that but to get to that point of curing cancer that child has to make choices. If God has already planned that the child will cure cancer therefore the child does NOT have free will because God will make sure that the choices the child make will lead it to finding the cure for cancer. That's what I'm saying. If God has planned out your life and knows what will happen to you then you don't have free will! You can't have, because God will make sure that you take the choices because that is what God has planned. "He may KNOW what is going to happen to everyone of us, but that doesn't mean it was His WILL" But it is God's will! Because if it is already know what will happen to you then that is what will happen to you. Your choices are the choices that God wants you to do because that is what God knows you will do! For God to know what will happen to everyone of us then God must know the choices that we will make so it is already pre-determined for us which choices we will make because our life has already been written by God. If God has a plan and knows what will happen to everyone then there is no such thing as free will because our future has already been written. Think of it like characters in a book. God is the author. The characters may think that they have free will and make their own choices but actually it's part of what the author has chosen for them. If it is already known what choices you will make and what will happen in your life then it's not free will. It simply can't be. As for pregnancy being something that happens not a choice.... ummm... it is a choice. If a woman choices to have sex then she choices to run the risk of getting pregnant regardless of whether she uses protection or not. Protection can fail and she runs the risk of that and she chooses to run that risk. The only time pregnancy is something that happens to a woman is in cases of rape and if God has chosen that for her then so much for a loving-God. But then if God has a plan and knows what will happen then he knows the woman will be raped and therefore the choices that she makes in her life will somehow lead her to being raped as she has no choice but to be raped because it has already been mapped out since before she was born that she will raped. (And I am not saying in ANY way here that being raped is the woman's fault - I'm saying it's God's fault because God has known since before she was born that she will be raped. God decided that it will happen to her. ) If God has a plan/knows what will happen to every life before they are born then there is no such thing as Free Will, so having an abortion is part of his plan. Otherwise there is absolutely no logic whatsoever in the whole "God has a plan for every life" argument... As for the abortion being classed as murder.... I'm not talking in a Biblical sense... I'm talking about everyday general, legal classification: Abortion is not murder... The only time abortion is illegal is backstreet and that's because the mother's life is put at major risk... And I'm sorry that this is so long.... I did warn in my introduction post that my posts will ramble, repeat, not be in any order and probably not make sense..... OK, so you completely ignored all the reasoning I gave you in my previous post. And I found a few more verses for you, because this argument is all about biblical. And I have a lot more to say, but I decided that I really don't feel like wasting my night typing it up right now. So I'll be back later. |
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Post by ladytera on Oct 1, 2008 22:20:37 GMT -5
I think we've wandered into the free will thread.  As to abortion being murder, the only reason it is not legally murder at the moment, is because human rights have not been extended to fetuses. Oh, but wait, yes they have. In many states, if you kill a pregnant woman you are charged with two counts of murder, one for the mother, one for the child. At least one state, California, that has such laws, is one of the most pro-abortion states in the union. That is quite simply sheer hypocrisy. I am anti-abortion on moral grounds, but that is a personal choice. I would not impose my religious views on another human being, and therefore, many years ago, I would have agreed with many of you here. Now, however, I am anti-abortion on legal and constitutional grounds as well. Those views are not based in my moral or religious ideals. They are not based upon me as an individual imposing my views on another person. They are based on the fundamental belief that the sole purpose of the government is to protect us from individuals who would deprive us of our rights when we are unable to protect ourselves. The first among these rights, without which all other rights are moot, is life. Ergo, it is the government's absolute responsibility to uphold each citizens right to life, and to protect each citizen from those who would deprive them of that right without due process of law. Logically it would follow that that includes stopping a mother from depriving her unborn child, which would have to be the most vulnerable citizens among us, from taking its right to life from it. You also noted that getting pregnant is not something that just happens to you, with the possible exception of rape. You went into reasons and detail on why that is true. For those in this thread who have objected to the label pro-abortion, who prefer pro-choice, here is why I insist on speaking in terms of pro-abortion vs. anti-abortion. I am absolutely pro- choice. You have an absolute choice to say no to sex, you have an absolute choice to use protection. You even have an absolute choice to receive morning after treatment if you have been violated by rape. You have the right to choice, but the choice must come at the act that causes pregnancy, not to eliminate the consequences of that choice. hravan, you're making sense well enough. And don't worry about the length too much. I think I may hold the record for length of posts at the moment. I went a little nuts on the Who would you vote for thread. One of the was almost 7 pages in my word processor.  |
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Post by ladytera on Oct 1, 2008 22:25:34 GMT -5
Gil, try not to get too frustrated.  The truth is, this isn't entirely a religious debate, and if it was, I'd have to say that the Christian's would have to lose it. There are any number of verses in the Bible that would probably apply to the situation, but we have a country where freedom of religion is sacrosanct. Therefore, it is forbidden for Congress to make laws solely based on religious belief. So then, the arguement must move into the realm of law and human rights. Anti-abortion has a very strong case on that basis, but too few argue it on the legal merits. Instead it wanders into a debate about religion. So, for you to explain why you hold anti-abortion views as a result of your religious beliefs is perfectly relevant and intelligent to the conversation, but be patient with the fact that others who do not hold those views will argue with them, and often skip over them as not relevant to the legal issues involved. I really enjoyed reading your post though. |
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Post by Caunion on Oct 1, 2008 22:52:31 GMT -5
Life? What's life? You have to define life, first. To me and many scientists, life is simply consciousness - the ability of self-aware thought. Of course, to develop consciousness, one need a brain and a nervous system, which an embryo does not possess.
I'm sorry. I don't understand this argument at all. But what I got was rape victims shouldn't be allowed to get an abortion just because they were raped if abortions were illegal. Well, one thing I notice about the human race. If we want something, we do anything to get it. A rape victim will get an abortion. Of course the means of doing so is cruel and well often end in her death.
First. That site you cited was a pro-life site. I'm a bit worried about the bias issue there. Secondly. It's terribly outdated. The last cited source on that site was 1987. The phenomenon that you are talking about is labeled "post-abortion syndrome" by the pro-life. Unfortunately for them, neither the The American Psychological Association nor the American Psychiatric Association recognise it as a diagnosis. In addition, evidence has been found that the there are many different variables that affect the psychological reaction to an abortion. Whether it was wanted or not, what you were taught, what people had told you.
The others have discussed the first argument you presented and I have nothing further to add.
Technically the unborn child is an extension of the mother, so thus when she died, so did the baby. If the mother decides to kill an extension of herself (i.e. a foetus), then she is allowed to. It's her body.
Once again. You're talking about a hypothetical case. There are a lot of different variables into this. Oh, and by the way, while post-abortion syndrome does not exist, postpartum depression, a depression caused by childbirth, actually does exist and is widely accepted by many medical institutes. But also adoption can also cause emotional distress to mothers.
Actually laws are made for the benefit of society. Which is why some countries are considering programmes to exchange clean needles with heroin addicts. Or why some countries are relaxing their illegal substance restrictions. Like we have all said, abortions are going to happen one way or another. But as a society, it is our duty to have that woman's health in consideration. Much like it is our duty to have a drug addict's health. After all, doesn't your God say something like love everyone?
On a sidenote, God obviously doesn't mind people killing unborn babies. (Hosea 13:16)
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Post by Caunion on Oct 1, 2008 22:55:03 GMT -5
Oh! One more thing that failed to escape my notice. What exactly is the goal of pro-life? Do they wanted no abortions? No contraception? Or no premartial sex at all? If they didn't want abortions, shouldn't they promote contraceptives and adequate sex education (No more abstinence-only crap)? Because after all, it is these methods that reduce abortions? Not just banning them.
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Post by ladytera on Oct 1, 2008 23:52:46 GMT -5
Oh! One more thing that failed to escape my notice. What exactly is the goal of pro-life? Do they wanted no abortions? No contraception? Or no premartial sex at all? If they didn't want abortions, shouldn't they promote contraceptives and adequate sex education (No more abstinence-only crap)? Because after all, it is these methods that reduce abortions? Not just banning them. Pro-Life goal is to eliminate abortion. There is a reason that they promote abstinence only crap as you put it. I'll start another thread on that later when I have time. There are some fundamentalists that promote no contraception, but they do not seek to make it law, as far as I know. That is an entirely religious view, based on the religious doctrine of their individual churches, and they recognize it as such. There is little evidence (that I'm aware of) that sex education reduces the instances of abortion. The simple truth is that contraceptives fail, and that youth being what it is, contraception is often not employed, no matter how much it is taught. I can speak to this from a personal anecdotal perspective. I got pregnant the first time at 14, well after I had been exposed to sex education. I got pregnant the second time, still out of wedlock, still as a result of stupidity on my part, at the age of 18, well after I'd been fully indoctrinated by the best sex education California high schools and Planned Parenthood have to offer. As a caveat to that, the decision to keep my child was a simple one, and abortion only crossed my mind as an option to immediately discard. That decision, oddly enough, had little to do with my religious beliefs at the time (as you can imagine they weren't playing too big a part in my life right then). I was very aware of what the consequences to me and my child would be should I choose to end that life, and I was unwilling to shirk my responsibilities there. That was when I was 18. I would have made the same decision when I was 14, but I miscarried. One more thought there. I am grateful, looking back, that that miscarriage took place. I am even more grateful that I was given the gift that is Ammy when I was 18. That was the beginning of some of the greatest experiences in my life, even though many of them were difficult, and I will never regret either getting pregnant, or keeping her. As to other ways of reducing abortions, education is the absolute key. Not sex education, but educating young people about the responsibilities of relationships, the responsibilities of parenthood, the available support for those choosing adoption, the options and process of adoption, and the available support for those who choose to keep their child. The issue of abortion is a phenomenal failure by our society to teach our children values and to prepare them to be responsible adults from an early age. |
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Hravan
Journeyman
Life is a Musical
Posts: 106
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Post by Hravan on Oct 2, 2008 12:19:28 GMT -5
OK, so you completely ignored all the reasoning I gave you in my previous post. And I found a few more verses for you, because this argument is all about biblical. And I have a lot more to say, but I decided that I really don't feel like wasting my night typing it up right now. So I'll be back later. No, I didn't ignore all your reasoning in your past post... I addressed it... you cannot have a God who has a plan and knows what will happen to you and have Free Will and I'm not talking about biblical. I'm talking from a purely logical view (although I will admit that my logic can be a bit strange and not make sense to other people because of my SLDs as I go round and round in circles especially in writing... If I was speaking I would be able to make more sense ) As for abortion being murder... I'm not talking biblically in any of my posts, I'm speaking legally. Like I said, part of my religious beliefs is that killing non-human animals is wrong HOWEVER legally it's not murder so I will never call anyone who kills non-human animals a murder. Abortion is not murder legally so whatever your religious beliefs you cannot call someone who has an abortion a murderer (which is what you're implying by saying abortion is murder.) . It's called defamation and defamation is illegal and you can be prosecuted for it. Maybe I should clear this up.. When I say God I'm talking about any deity, I'm not talking specifically about the Christian God... I'm talking about any God, any deity, any religion that claims a deity (God) has a plan/knows what will happen but still gives Free Will.. Sorry, on another debate forum I used to be on unless we said in our post a specific deity (Christian God, Diana, Herne etc) "God" was taken to mean any deity/higher being... I think we've wandered into the free will thread. As to abortion being murder, the only reason it is not legally murder at the moment, is because human rights have not been extended to fetuses. Oh, but wait, yes they have. In many states, if you kill a pregnant woman you are charged with two counts of murder, one for the mother, one for the child. At least one state, California, that has such laws, is one of the most pro-abortion states in the union. That is quite simply sheer hypocrisy. I'm in the UK... here abortion is not murder. I've never heard of a case in the UK where someone was charged with murder for a foetus but there may have been... I'll have to check... EDIT: Ok there has been cases of people being accused of murder of an unborn child in the UK under the Infant Life (Preservation) Act of 1929 which is from a time from when abortion was illegal in the UK... However, it states in the act: "any person who, with intent to destroy the life of a child capable of being born alive, by any wilful act causes a child to die before it has an existence independent of its mother, shall be guilty of felony, to wit, of child destruction, and shall be liable on conviction thereof on indictment to penal servitude for life" and it then states: "For the purposes of this Act, evidence that a woman had at any material time been pregnant for a period of twenty-eight weeks or more shall be primâ facie proof that she was at that time pregnant of a child capable of being born alive." So really it can only be used after 28 weeks and it does say that if it was done in "good faith for the purpose only of preserving the life of the mother" then it not punishable under the Act. Abortion in the UK is legal under 24 weeks or any time during a pregnancy if two doctors agree that the abortion is necessary to save the woman's life or prevent serious permanent harm to her mental or physical health, or there is a high risk that the baby would be seriously handicapped. So in that case the Act would not be implicated. And yes, I'm sorry about going into Free Will... I might wander over there soon.... |
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Raivynn
Journeyman
...my winter storm
Posts: 187
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Post by Raivynn on Oct 2, 2008 17:18:10 GMT -5
I'm Pro-Choice. Even as a mother, I'm still very much Pro-Choice.
Maybe even more so. I know a some people may find that strange, perhaps even cold. But it is, what it is.
Even though I am Pro-Choice. I think the time span given to have an abortion should be lowered.
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Gil
Apprentice
teh spazzy queen
Posts: 54
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Post by Gil on Oct 2, 2008 17:40:10 GMT -5
Alright, I see the problem here. It seems hravan and I were arguing about two different things (for some of it at least =P). See, hravan, about the "abortion is murder" thing, I was talking biblically it's murder. I didn't mean that it was legally murder. (Although, I believe it should be =P Like ladytera said about California - hypocrisies!) I guess there was a bit of miscommunication there. My whole last couple of posts were all talking about biblically speaking, not politically speaking. Because politically speaking things are much different. Which leads me to say, ladytera, again, what I was arguing with hravan about was all about what the Bible says...not the government. One of the reasons I am pro-life is, yes, because of my religion, but that is not why I think abortion should be illegal politically. Am I making any sense now?  OK, so to respond to the free will stuff (although I suppose I could just go over to the free will thread...although before when I was over there the discussion was quite different so I didn't want to bring this back up) - I don't understand why knowing something is going to happen automatically makes it God's will. For example, if I know that my best friend is going to drive her car home drunk, if we are at a party together and she is drunk says "Erica, I'm driving home now", it doesn't make it my will for that to happen. Yes, there is something I could do to PREVENT her from driving home, or I could tell her "Oh! That's a great idea. I approve," or I could just stand back and say nothing, but ultimately, it is her decision. I am not forcing her or bending her will to my own. So when God knows we are going to do something (we don't have to consciously tell Him - because He knows already), He may either agree or disagree. But that doesn't mean it is His WILL for us to do it. We have the choice. It seems that your whole argument of why we don't have free will is because if God KNOWS what is going to happen, then it must be His WILL. (correct me if I'm wrong and you have more than just that reasoning behind it). But if you look at the example I just stated, that isn't true. For, if we also believe that we don't have free will - that God controls everything we do - that also means that our love for Him is meaningless. For if He FORCES us to love him, than it is not really love at all? But I'm venturing deep into the free will and meaning of life subjects here... And I don't even know what I'm talking about anymore But I think we should probably agree to disagree on this one. I don't see either of us changing our minds XD Caunion - I'd love to respond to everything you said, I really would, but I don't think I'm cut out for debating. My brain is already turning to mush! So here are just a few responses: Hmm....well, it seems the government has determined that a fetus is life. Read what ladytera said: That is what I was getting at with my Scott Pederson comment as well. And if the fetus is just a part of the mother, and it just died when she did, why did he still get charged with double murder? Because if the fetus/baby was just an extension of the mother, he should have only been charged for one case of murder. Next: I don't really understand what you're saying either... Hmm...well, what I was trying to say (how can I rephrase this/make it make sense?) is that some people think abortion should be illegal for everyone except rape/incest victims. What I was saying is that if that were the law, it wouldn't be fair, because there is actually no reason for abortion to be legal for rape/incest victims but not for anyone else....Does that make any more sense? Was it? I'm sorry, I didn't really check into the site very much - just googled post-abortion syndrome (because I had heard of it elsewhere) and clicked on the first link that explained what it was. I'm not saying it is necessarily a documented medical condition, but I was saying it that not everyone comes away from abortions emotionally and physically fine. Yes, plenty of women do, but it isn't completely "safe" - psychologically or physically. However, I don't believe the US is one of those countries, so I don't see any reason for us to take that approach (if we make abortion illegal, more unsafe illegal abortions will occur). Also, I loved what ladytera said about a government's responsibility: As for the comment about God telling us to love everyone...........what? I'm not sure how that has anything to do with....anything. I didn't say I didn't love anyone.....It is possible to disagree with someone and still love them. My parents do it all the time. That is taken completely out of context. That verse is part of a prophesy telling Israel what will happen to them if they turn their back on the Lord. If you read the entire verse as well as the ones surrounding it, it also mentions that "His storehouse will be plundered of all its treasures [stealing]. The people of Samaria...will fall by the sword [murder]." If you think that verse is God condoning abortion, than it must mean He is condoning stealing and murder. However, it is a prophesy warning Israel of the consequences of their actions - and, from what I can understand, the stealing, murdering, and killing will be carried out by one of the neighboring countries when the Lord removes His protection from Israel. However, I have not read or studied the book of Hosea in depth, so I could be a little off on this. If you'd like, I could look it up for you. As for your last comment: I think ladytera explained it much better than I would be able to. Phew! That tired me out |
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Hravan
Journeyman
Life is a Musical
Posts: 106
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Post by Hravan on Oct 2, 2008 18:58:28 GMT -5
OK, so to respond to the free will stuff (although I suppose I could just go over to the free will thread...although before when I was over there the discussion was quite different so I didn't want to bring this back up) - It seems that your whole argument of why we don't have free will is because if God KNOWS what is going to happen, then it must be His WILL. (correct me if I'm wrong and you have more than just that reasoning behind it). But if you look at the example I just stated, that isn't true. For, if we also believe that we don't have free will - that God controls everything we do - that also means that our love for Him is meaningless. For if He FORCES us to love him, than it is not really love at all? Kind of... I'm not saying that because God KNOWS what will happen to us therefore it's God's WILL.... What I'm saying, that if it is already known before we are born what will happen to us then that is what will happen to us and you can't escape from it. Call it Fate if you like, you can't avoid it. Therefore a woman's choice to have an abortion is her fate and so she doesn't have free will because it's already been written that she will have an abortion... Not necessarily that's it's a God's will but that it's been determined before she was born that she will have an abortion so she will have one. However, when it comes to the pro-life argument that God has a PLAN for every life then it does become God's will.... Because if God plans that a person will find the cure for cancer before they are even born then God will make sure that the choices that person take will lead them to finding the cure for cancer so therefore they don't have free will because it's God's WILL that they'll discover the cure. Like I said above.... I'm not saying it's God's will... I'm saying that if it is already known since before we are born what will happen to us then there is no way that we can escape from it so we don't have free will because all our choices have already been pre-determined... Yeah, you're probably right..... I think my brain will explode.... Let's leave the free will thing or move it to the free will thread.. |
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Post by keyodie on Oct 2, 2008 20:03:07 GMT -5
Gil - I think the reason rape/incest victims should be an exception if abortion were to be illegal is because it isn't their fault that they impregnated, a crime was done unto them. It would be cruel to ask them to give up their goals and dreams because they were raped. Other people, however, have the choice of having sex, with or without protection.
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Hravan
Journeyman
Life is a Musical
Posts: 106
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Post by Hravan on Oct 2, 2008 20:56:09 GMT -5
You even have an absolute choice to receive morning after treatment if you have been violated by rape. OK... stop right there. I know victims of rape, I know people who work with victims of rape and that is NOT the case. At all. Now, there are some people who after being raped seek help straight away or are able to clearly think and so get the morning after pill but some don't. There are a hell of a lot of emotions and feelings that you go through after being raped which you have no control over. You can go into denial, you can feel like it was your fault, you feel that people won't believe you, you feel ashamed.... it takes a hell of a lot longer than 3 days to start getting back to normal and thinking straight... Rape is not something nasty that happens to you for a short time then doesn't have any impact on your emotions or rational thought afterwards.... I know someone who took 3 weeks for the thought that she could be pregnant to cross her mind... before that she was a bit too preoccupied with having flash-backs, having panic attacks, lying on her bed crying with shame, not eating, not sleeping because everytime she closed her eyes she could she his face and she only thought about it when she finally told someone what had happened to her.... People deal with things in different ways.... Those rape victims who are able to get hold of the pill within 3 days normally do... Doesn't mean that every rape victim will be able to and definitely does not mean that they should be forced to carry his child just because they react differently to other people... And what about rape victims who are kidnapped and raped? They definitely don't have access to the morning after pill... And what about victim of domestic abuse? Rape can happen inside marriage/relationships where the victim is too scared to try and break free.... And no, they can't "just go get help" or "leave him"... it isn't as simple as that.... When you live in abject fear and terror trying to get free is not easy.... If your abuser is really clever (and most of them are to be able to get you to that stage) they'll have you believing that nobody would believe you if you dare to talk about it.... What about victims who were drugged? Some drugs cause memory loss so she may not even know that she was raped! So how on earth could she make the choice of going to get the pill if she didn't know she was raped to being with? |
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Post by ladytera on Oct 4, 2008 2:19:53 GMT -5
Yep, generally for the rest of your life.
Depends on your reasoning for making abortion illegal. You obviously discount the moral religious objection to abortion, and quite frankly, I do as well. It has no legal basis. I believe abortion should be illegal because each human being has a right to life. If I believe that each human being has a right to life, I cannot then state that because that human being was created out of a violent act it should be deprived of that right to life. Therefore, I do not believe, that even in the case of rape, abortion should be legal, because the right to life does not apply only to some, it applies to all, and is the basis for my belief that abortion should be illegal. If I am raped, and my rapist is not convicted, am I then justified in taking his life, outside the law? No, I am not, that would be murder. Why then should I be justified in taking the life of an innocent person, who in the sense you are talking about, is as much a victim of the rapist as the woman who was raped. It doesn't follow. And before you get mad and call me cold and heartless, please read the rest of my response to your post.
I'm well aware that rape can happen inside a marriage, as I was subject to that very thing for two years or more. And no, it is not simple to get up and leave, and it's even worse than just thinking no one will believe you, it is not even being sure you can believe yourself that that is what is happening. Because, as you say, they are very clever to get you to that point. By then, they have stripped you of who you are, they have turned your ideas of what is right in a relationship completely on its head, and they have made you question everything you ever believed. So, when they act as though it is your duty to tolerate that sexual abuse, there is a part of you that gibbers in fear, and part of you that screams in rage, and a part of you that sobs in despair, and all of it is buried under the numbness of hopelessness, and the desperate prayer that it will just end. So, yeah, I know how bad rape can suck. Even with that, I stand by my position. Just because something bad happened to me did not justify me going out and doing something bad to someone else.
Same thing as above. There are things that happen in your life that you have no control over. How you chose to deal with those things determines who you are, but a horrid experience in your life does not give you the right to end the life of another human being. Making the argument for rape and incest abortion being the exception to a law against abortion is no less a moral judgment based on your belief in your sense of "fairness" than the Christian who advocates that abortion should be illegal because God said so.
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Gil
Apprentice
teh spazzy queen
Posts: 54
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Post by Gil on Oct 4, 2008 11:34:19 GMT -5
^what ladytera just said was exactly what I was trying to say here:
However, I just worded it very, very badly.
So thank you ladytera!
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Post by keyodie on Oct 4, 2008 18:36:43 GMT -5
I was just watching George Carlin on abortion... Here's what he said, just something to think about. "Is a fetus a human being? This seems to be the central question. Well, if a fetus is a human being, how come the census doesn't count them? If a fetus is a human being, how come when there's a miscarriage they don't have a funeral? If a fetus is a human being, how come people say we have two children and one on the way instead of saying we have three children? People say life begins at conception, I say life began about a billion years ago and it's a continuous process. Continuous, just keeps rolling along. Listen, you can go back further than that. What about the carbon atoms? Human life could not exist without carbon. So is it just possible that maybe we shouldn't be burning all this coal?" He goes on to talk about how, according to the life begins at fertilization theory, any woman who has had more than one period is a serial killer. xD www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrXvDXVhqfU(For those who are unfamiliar with George Carlin... *cough* Language. Among other things.) I will be giving your (ladytera and Gil's) points some thought, and will reply eventually. |
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Post by ladytera on Oct 7, 2008 3:49:38 GMT -5
Keyodie, George Carlin is a left-wing idiot, who for the longest time advocated drugs, sex and drinking. He's not a bad comedian, but I tend not to take him to seriously on political issues of any kind. I've gotta say that goes for most celebrities. Angelina Jolie and Bono tend to be two exceptions to that rule of mine, because they actually take the time to learn a lot about what they're talking about. Otherwise, it's all sound bites, jokes, and mindless drivel that is rarely based on any kind of factual information. Makes great sound bites, lousy policy and lousy law.
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Post by keyodie on Oct 7, 2008 6:58:56 GMT -5
Hey now, don't go calling him an idiot. xD Yes, he is a good comedian. But you have got to admit, what I quoted is definitely a valid argument. Just because a comedian happens to present a good argument doesn't mean it should be ignored.  He's talking about inconsisties in the anti-abortion arguments, and it's something to think about. That is all. |
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