Which religion?

[Lady Dark Moon]

Larael, yes THANK YOU. I agree with you completely. No belief is ever "right" or "wrong," and I hate it when others try to make you think otherwise. Everyone's interpretation of God(s) is different, and no one deserves to go to hell simply for believing in something else. After all, love of a certain God isn't innate - it's learned. We are what our parents/the world teaches us to be.

Ammy, I like what you're saying about the meaning of life as well. If we could help it, we would stop debating about the meaning of life and simply LIVE. We've been blessed with this wonderful gift... why question why it was given? Yet here we are. It's human nature, isn't it, to seek answers to questions that shouldn't be sought after.

As for religion, I believe that the most pure form of faith is not what some church/temple tells us to believe, but what we choose to believe for ourselves. Our ideals, our principles, our standards of living. If believing in God/heaven/hell makes you happy, then why not? Because that's the ultimate goal in life - to be happy, to live life to the fullest. There are some things in the world we have to believe in, and I think faith describes that set of truths. We have to find something to believe in, or we'd go insane.

[Larael]

I'm glad so many some of you agree. It really is an interesting concept, and though it does go against a few fundamental beliefs in Christianity I still feel I can accept that idea as a possibility. I mean, whose to say what's right and wrong concerning the afterlife when none of us have ever been there.

[smeagollum]

I do think that there is a right and a wrong, but it isn't until the afterlife that any of us are going to know what it is.

[Tar-Mika]

Hey, I'm going to throw myself in the mix here.

I'm agnostic. I believe in a higher power, but I find religion as a whole to be lacking something. I completely respect anyone who has a faith in any religion, but I just don't have it. I believe that the existence of an afterlife or anything to be unknowable (is that a word?) and I'm just fine with it that way.

[keyodie]

Yeah, I am a bit afraid of the afterlife, but I know I shouldn't be. Everyone is going there someday. But sometimes I just lie there staring at the ceiling at night and think about all the possibilities and how no one really knows, and it scares me a bit. And true, if afterlife is a big black void of nothing we probably wouldn't notice, but that thought still scares me for some reason. I think the fact that we wouldn't notice is even scarier, for some reason.

But I agree with all of you here, I think the meaning of life is just to live and do what you want. Though studying religion and the afterlife and such is certainly interesting, in the end it's a bit pointless. I mean, I have nothing against those people that study religion and philosophy and such, I'm interested in it too... As long as it's not an obsession, I think it's fine. But ultimately I think we should just all live for today and enjoy life while we still have it.

As for the possibility of the afterlife being sort of customized for us, I have thought about that. I think I've actually talked to Eric about that. It would be nice though.

[misaki]

I'm a weird mix of all sorts of ideas, and I refuse to call myself anything because a) my ideas keep changing; I think that's healthy. The more people you meet, the more things you see, the more it keeps changing. If you're not being prejudiced, that is. b) I dislike all organized religion. That includes Atheism, even though it's no religion


Okay, I used to experiment with witchcraft a lot, which was fun but didn't actually make me believe in anything. Witchcraft does NOT mean Paganism. When I say witchcraft, I mean certain techniques etc for manipulating life. Which was fun, when it occasionally worked. The fun thing is that I did Chaos magic, which is magic based on scientific interpretations; without mysterious candles, gods, ghosts and other such fun things. It had exactly the same results as the magic of people who did believe in all that. ROFL, I used lipstick and electric lights and didn't take anything seriously. I approached it the same way as math.
However, that does not influence my opinion about life, death or whatever. All this 'tricks' are exactly what they seem; tricks. They don't prove anything about the 'important questions.' at least not for me. I think dogma is one of the things that makes people die a little inside. Whatever dogma. Whether it's the dogma of there being no god, of there being god, of there being many gods, if you just choose one idea and leave life unexplored, you miss something. In my opinion. I think, actually, that religion is just about the biggest enemy of 'spirituality' or whatever you want to call it.

Okay. I have now probably offended half of you already

Anyway, my beliefs are hard to define. I believe in what I see, feel and experience. In logic. I'm agnostic in a way because I don't really think God exists. Because, to put it simply, I've never met the guy. Sorry God. If you want me to go on my knees, you'll have to a) come over some time b) prove that you are worth going on my knees for, which I, sorry again, doubt.

I guess many of my ideas about the world are Pagan-ish. I don't believe in good and evil. I believe in negative and positive happenings in every one's life. What is negative to someone is positive to another. I'm open to the possibility of ghosts and spirits, but since I've never met one, I don't believe in them as such. However, I do think the world is more than chemicals. I believe in myself. Lol. In other living beings. In a way, I guess my religion is life itself.

I don't particularly care about afterlife. At all. Since I have a deadly allergy + I simply love mountain climbing and stuff like that, I've been close to death about 5 times now. The first time was scary, then I got used to it. Life = for living, what happens after, I don't know, I don't want to know. If I'd know, maybe I'd start being scared or whatever. I don't want any of that. I'm comfortable with even the idea of a dark void. That's okay. I'm here, now. And I'm alive! Yippee!
I have love to give & receive, places to see, things to enjoy, to learn..

and that's more than enough . That's why staring in an abyss when I'm mountainclimbing only makes me feel peaceful and happy I haven't fallen in yet, not concerned that I still could.

[keyodie]

Aerlinn, I agree with pretty much everything you wrote. And wow, witchcraft... that is really interesting. I'd like to hear more about it, if you feel like it. What kind of magic? Could you be a bit more specific? Because when I hear magic I think wands and pointy hats and pretty shiny things. xP Maybe hearing about it will change that.

A lot of my ideas change over time as well. Sometimes my beliefs change with my mood. I call myself agnostic though because I acknowledge that I don't know anything, all I do is speculate about something I will never know the answer to. Though, if I think about it too much it gets a little frightening... I don't think it's too good to think about that stuff too much. Especially if it becomes an obsession. Because you're going to find out some day, why not just live your life the way you want to and the way you feel is right? I suppose.

And wow, that's a lot of close to death situations. There isn't any time that I can think of where I was close to death (errr maybe when I had pneumonia when I was two haha). Though, I've THOUGHT I was close to death before, but that doesn't really count.

[Ammy Fae]

When I'm a little more awake, I'll start a topic on witchcraft and one on near-death experiences, both of which I've had experience with. As it is, I'm too groggy to think quite right right now. =P

[Ladybug 2.0 (Lothy)]

I put Christian, but I'm pretty open minded. I use to be Pagan, but over Christmas something happend that made me re-think my religious veiws. It's going to sound silly, but my puppy, Guinness, was hit by a car and killed 5 days before Christmas day and I guess that changed the way of how I saw things.

[Ammy Fae]

Made a topic on Witchcraft, I'll get around to near-death experiences soon. Aerlinn, just as forewarning, I'm moving your post about Chaos Magick to the other topic so it's more appropriate to the discussion.

[keyodie]

Aug 4, 2008 20:44:27 GMT -5 Ladybug 2.0 (Lothy) said:

I put Christian, but I'm pretty open minded. I use to be Pagan, but over Christmas something happend that made me re-think my religious veiws. It's going to sound silly, but my puppy, Guinness, was hit by a car and killed 5 days before Christmas day and I guess that changed the way of how I saw things.

Ugh that's horrible, I'm so sorry. *hugs* My dog got loose once during a thunderstorm at night, and his eyesight isn't good so I was so worried that he was going to get hit... I can't imagine how worse I would've felt if it actually happened. It must've been hard. It doesn't sound silly at all. Experiences like that change people.

[ladytera]

Larael and Caunion, you both might get a kick out of a podiobook by Mur Lafferty. It's actually a series, and it very entertainingly explores the idea of multiple afterlives, everything from reincarnation to purgatory to the several levels of Dante's hell, and more. As a Christian and a Sci-Fi buff I found it intriguing as well as funny.

A note on Karma from the Christian viewpoint, Karma is very much a part of the Christian faith as put forth in the Bible, even though it's not called that. From the command to do unto others as you would have them do unto you to the concept that when you give of what you have freely it will return to you seven fold, there is a recurring theme that when you do good things good things happen. And when you do bad things bad things happen. Whether you name it Karma, consequence, or divine comedy, it all amounts to about the same thing.

Larael, I think acceptance is precisely the word you were looking for, not of the other persons beliefs, but of their right to have those beliefs and to express them. That too is a basic tenet of Christianity that is often misunderstood and difficult to articulate. God gave us the choice of whether or not to follow him for a reason, forced love or forced faith is no love or faith at all. To come into a true walk with God you have to question, explore, and challenge the beliefs you hold. Otherwise, what's the point?

For the rest of you, I read all of these at once, and it's getting late so I'll just toss out a couple of things. For the agnostics among you, what do you or don't you believe that makes you call yourself an agnostic? Caunion, do you truly not believe in anything beyond this rock, and if so why? Please don't take that as criticism. I'm genuinely interested, and while I won't promise not to talk about my beliefs and their foundations, I do promise to respect yours. I like a good philosophical debate, as Ammy will tell you. 'Til next time, be bless (by whomever or lack thereof).

[Ladybug 2.0 (Lothy)]

Aug 5, 2008 7:02:18 GMT -5 keyodie said:

Aug 4, 2008 20:44:27 GMT -5 Ladybug 2.0 (Lothy) said:

I put Christian, but I'm pretty open minded. I use to be Pagan, but over Christmas something happend that made me re-think my religious veiws. It's going to sound silly, but my puppy, Guinness, was hit by a car and killed 5 days before Christmas day and I guess that changed the way of how I saw things.

Ugh that's horrible, I'm so sorry. *hugs* My dog got loose once during a thunderstorm at night, and his eyesight isn't good so I was so worried that he was going to get hit... I can't imagine how worse I would've felt if it actually happened. It must've been hard. It doesn't sound silly at all. Experiences like that change people.

Thanks It was really hard, but I still keep thinking 'Am I on the right path?'.

[keyodie]

No problem. And yeah, it must have been.

ladytera - Well I'm not atheist because I think there may very well be something somewhere that cannot be explained (sorry for the vagueness), but I don't follow a specific religion because I accept that I don't know what that something is. Now that I think about it, I actually don't care all that much... I just live in a way that I feel is right. It's just fun to speculate every now and then.

And actually, at times I am a pretty spiritual person. I still get those random epiphanies... Whether it's just seeing something incredibly beautiful, witnessing something incredibly sad, or just looking at the life around you.

[bdole]

ATHIESM!! because reality is awesome. there is no creator, only creation. there is no beginning because our perception of time isn't the REAL time, as much as time can be real. time does not move from beginning to end, it moves in ways we do not understand. i am not very spiritualistic ( i think, that could change *shrug*) but i do believe spiritualism is a necessity to society at large, but that does NOT mean you have to believe the prophet went to heaven on a flying horse or was lifted bodily into heaven. spiritualism is the basic hunt for deeper meaning and can take forms aplenty, although i personally like meditation. oh and this is the first forum ive posted on, so if my replies don't make sense please tell me.

[Haldir]

I'm Pagan... an Ásatrú Heathen.

Personally, I believe it makes more sense for there to be different gods to represent all different things, emotions and aspects than a single God representing everything. I've always believed this ever since I was able to understand things, even before I was able to read or write. Although I always mixed up Norse and Celtic deities until I learned to actually read.

But anyway, cool to see a good variety of beliefs here. I'm one who's interested in and who respects all religions, although maybe not all religious people for obvious reasons. I've been reading most of the religious discussions here with great interest, but I likely won't be participating in any of them.

[Hravan]

I'm Pagan....

[Larael]

Aug 7, 2008 1:07:43 GMT -5 ladytera said:

Larael, I think acceptance is precisely the word you were looking for, not of the other persons beliefs, but of their right to have those beliefs and to express them. That too is a basic tenet of Christianity that is often misunderstood and difficult to articulate. God gave us the choice of whether or not to follow him for a reason, forced love or forced faith is no love or faith at all. To come into a true walk with God you have to question, explore, and challenge the beliefs you hold. Otherwise, what's the point?

That was exactly the word I was looking for, thank you. And I think I'll definitely be on the look out for that podiobook.

Whilst I'm here I wanted to bring something up concerning atheism and agnosticism that I personally believe. Wikipedia defines atheism and agnosticism as such --

Atheism - absence of belief in the existence of God or gods

Agnosticism - the doctrine that only material things can be known, and hence knowledge of God, or for that matter anything supernatural, is impossible

My question is, why be agnostic? Why live your life not believing in anything? What purpose is there in that? What is the benefit of being so realistic?

My favourite quote from Yann Martel's novel Life of Pi speaks of the way Pi feels concerning Atheists and Agnostics. I do not claim they are my own beliefs concerning either religion [considering Pi is rather biased toward Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism], however the passage did cause me to ask the questions above.

"I can well imagine an atheist's last words: "White, white, L-L-Love! My God!'--and the deathbed leap of faith. Whereas the agnostic, if he stays true to his reasonable self, if he stays beholden to dry, yeastless factuality, might try to explain the warm light bathing him by saying, "Possibly a f-f-failing oxygenation of the b-b-brain," and, to the very end, lack imagination and miss the better story."

[keyodie]

I'm a bit confused with your use of the terms atheist and agnostic. To simplify those definitions, atheists believe there is no god. Agnostics believe that there may be a god, but the knowledge of such a god is impossible. But you make it seem like the agnostics are the ones who are "so realistic" and the atheists are the ones who think that god is a possibility.

Why live your life not believing in anything? What purpose is there in that? What is the benefit of being so realistic?

I'm going to assume you're referring to atheists here. I'm not atheist, but I'll answer your questions anyway.

Why live your life not believing in anything? Well, this really depends on your definition of "believing". Believing to me just means you have faith in something... I have faith in my dog to be loyal to me, I have faith in my friends to support me in times of need. If you mean "believing" in a spiritual sense... Atheists aren't completely lacking of that, either. They believe in evolution (most of the time). They can still appreciate life, beauty. Bdole, an atheist on the forum, said somewhere that he think it's awe-inspiring how we can come from something so small like a tiny bacteria.

What purpose is there in that? Well, what purpose is there in believing in God? That's essentially the same question. You believe in God because that is what you believe, atheists believe in what they believe because that is what they believe. Purpose has nothing to do with it. Atheists can still have meaning to their life. If you think life is pointless, your life will be pointless. But if you want to live your life successful, do amazing things, visit amazing places, live, love, and be happy... Well, there's a purpose right there.

What is the benefit of being so realistic? Why is being realistic a bad thing? It just means that they believe in what they were given and they believe in what they experience. Just because you're atheist doesn't mean you can't be spiritual. Everyone has those moments where they look around, whether you're in a crowded city or the great outdoors, and have that sense of enthusiasm, warmth, and beauty. You can still appreciate life.

Now, I'll go back to your other question: Why be agnostic? (I'll be pasting stuff from something I've written before, just FYI.)

I am actually fairly certain that there is a god out there, or some supernatural force. However, I don't know what it is, and I'm fine with that. I still give a lot of thought to the afterlife and how the Earth came to be, but I'm not consumed by it. I just want to live life and do what makes me happy. I live for today.

Being agnostic, to me, is being open-minded and forming my own beliefs and opinions from my experiences. I don't believe in organized religion. I think beliefs are based on what you experience and what others experience, and you taking what you want from it. Your life is whatever you make it out to be, nothing else. It's your life.

I think we have all been through extremely rough times and will continue to do so, I think we will all experience things that will make us question everything around us including ourselves. There will be bumps in the road ahead, and I will change. That I know for sure. I will cry, I will laugh, I will experience. I will succeed and I will fail. All I can do now is to look forward to those rough patches and to hope that they don't destroy me. To hope that I will be strong enough to pull myself out of any holes in the pavement.

So, when I die, I probably won't say either of those things... I would probably be down right scared. But, if I were to know when my death was going to come and had a few days to prepare, I would be looking back on my life and remembering the good moments of what, hopefully, was a good life. I've already mentioned this earlier in the thread, but, what the hey. If there is a god and (s)he is just, I'll probably be judged on the virtues I lived by and not whether I worshipped him/her or not. But, that's just my opinion. (I got that from a quote that I don't remember right now.)

[Larael]

Sorry for my somewhat confusing post. I sort of threw it together rather fast and wasn't really sure whether it would make sense or not. At least you got something out of it keyodie. Anyway, I also want to apologise for perhaps sounding a bit hostile. I certainly didn't mean it that way.

To be honest, I just want some answers from actual atheists and agnostics. Most of my friends are Christian or Muslim and so a lot of your beliefs I have to glean from things I read. Unfortunately, as in the case of Life of Pi, the author was rather biased when it came to representing agnostics. Your answer was very thorough and to be honest, I think I could answer those very same questions in a similar way despite our differences.

As it is, I'm still a bit confused. How do you deferntiate between agnostics and atheists? How do you even decide which one you are? And why is it hard for you to believe in God [or a higher power of any other religion]? This last question interests me the most and whilst I think I know the answer I have a feeling a few of you will surprise me.