what is Israel to do?

[Bubba's Dad]

What is Israel supposed to do? The Palestinians caused trouble when they were in Lebanon. They cause trouble now with Egypt along that boarder. And their leaders have declared that there will be no piece with a Jewish State. Israel asks for nothing from its neighbors except the right to live in piece. Yet the rockets come, by the thousands over the years. So when ever the IDF uses force to protect its citizens, the world condoms them, as seen during this latest spat in the Gaza strip. S what should they do, what would you do?

[Bubba's Dad]

I see they figured it out. Boots on the ground and tanks crossing the boarder. Go Israel! All of this could have been avoided. All Israel wanted is to be left alone and not have rockets and bombs dropped on their people. A simple request. A request that was ignored bu Hammas during the so called truce. I hope the world stands beside Israel, but I am guessing that will never happen.

[Hravan]

Oh yes, really Go Israel! Go bomb schools! Go bomb UN-run schools! Go kill children! That's the way to go!

Sickening.

Well maybe Israel will now heed international calls for the cease-fire that they refused to consent to before.

Let's see..
660 Palestinians killed most of those civilians.
4 Israeli civilians and 5 soliders killed.
And Israel is saying that Hammas is committing war crimes (AKA breaking international war laws) by firing rockets and they are legally responding in self defence. But what they seam to have forgotten is that under the same laws their response has to be proportionate. It most definitely is NOT proportionate. 559 deaths difference.

[ladytera]

Jan 6, 2009 17:12:08 GMT -5 Hravan said:

Oh yes, really Go Israel! Go bomb schools! Go bomb UN-run schools! Go kill children! That's the way to go!

Sickening.

Well maybe Israel will now heed international calls for the cease-fire that they refused to consent to before.

I sure as hell hope not. As to bombing near schools, UN or otherwise, why do you think it is okay for terrorists to place weapons caches in schools? Why do you think they do put weapons caches in and near schools, hospitals, etc.? So that folks like you will start screaming cease fire the minute Israel responds to the threat to their nation.

Let's see..
660 Palestinians killed most of those civilians.

First of all, civilians get killed in wars. I haven't read the most recent stories, but the initial reports I was reading there were something like 300 people killed (this was several days ago), and one quarter of them were civilians. That means that at the time, three-quarters of them were terrorists. I'd be willing to bet that the numbers are still running the same averages, which is hardly mostly civilians.

4 Israeli civilians and 5 soliders killed.

So, because the Israelis pay attention to their warning systems and take shelter when Hamas drops bombs on them, and because Hamas has crappy aim, you think that Israel is wrong for trying to stop the rocket attacks coming from the Gaza strip that are terrorizing the Israeli citizens. How do you justify that belief, considering one of the primary duties of any government is to protect it's citizens from enemies, foreign and domestic?

And Israel is saying that Hammas is committing war crimes (AKA breaking international war laws) by firing rockets and they are legally responding in self defence. But what they seam to have forgotten is that under the same laws their response has to be proportionate. It most definitely is NOT proportionate. 559 deaths difference.

You are either misrepresenting or misinterpreting the meaning of proportionate response in terms of what is meant by that term when applied to war. The definition of proportionate response in a just war is:

Proportionality
The anticipated benefits of waging a war must be proportionate to its expected evils or harms. This principle is also known as the principle of macro-proportionality, so as to distinguish it from the jus in bello principle of proportionality.

The expected benefit of waging war is that the Israeli people will no longer be required to live in fear of terrorist bombings, and as importantly, the Palestinian people will be required to live in peace, thus also not have to live in fear of being bombed , or made targets by the terrorist group currently in charge of their territory. Therefore, the proportional cause to go to war was just.

Jus in bello

Once war has begun, just war theory also directs how combatants are to act:
(Jus in bello)

Distinction
Just war conduct should be governed by the principle of distinction. The acts of war should be directed towards enemy combatants, and not towards non-combatants caught in circumstances they did not create. The prohibited acts include bombing civilian residential areas that include no military target and committing acts of terrorism or reprisal against ordinary civilians.

The Israelis have gone out of their way, including giving up the advantage of surprise attacks by warning civilians in the areas of military targets, which the terrorist group Hamas has purposely placed in civilian areas, of coming attacks, to give civilians time to vacate the area before the attacks commence. The Israelis have NOT specifically targeted civilian targets, unlike the Hamas terrorist regime who has specifically targeted civilian targets from the beginning.

Proportionality
Just war conduct should be governed by the principle of proportionality. The force used must be proportional to the wrong endured, and to the possible good that may come. The more disproportional the number of collateral civilian deaths, the more suspect will be the sincerity of a belligerent nation's claim to justness of a war it fights.[9]

First, Israel is not the belligerent nation, they were attacked, agreed to a cease fire, and were still attacked during the cease fire. They acted in response, not in agression. Second, the wrong endured is not the number of deaths caused by Hamas bombings, but the bombings themselves, and the policy behind them that Hamas intends to see Israel wiped off the map, refusing to recognize it as a sovereign nation, in violation of the will of the rest of the world. Third, the possible good that may come can only be achieved if Hamas if removed from power, and a peace seeking government can be restored to the Palestinian people. Therefore, to stop short of forcing a complete and unconditional surrender would actually violate the proportional response clause to the theory of a just war, as the response in not only proportional to the wrong done, but also to the overall goal of the war.

Military necessity
Just war conduct should be governed by the principle of minimum force. An attack or action must be intended to help in the military defeat of the enemy, it must be an attack on a military objective, and the harm caused to civilians or civilian property must be proportional and not excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated. This principle is meant to limit excessive and unnecessary death and destruction.

If Israel was interested in causing massive civilian casualties, they would simply carpet bomb the entire Gaza strip. Instead, they have specifically targeted known Hamas strongholds and Hamas infrastructure, which is perfectly acceptable just war behavior, and well within a proportional response. Nor has their response been excessive in terms of the military goal of eliminating Hamas' ability to launch rockets on the civilian population of Israel, thus forcing peace between the two peoples. It is not the fault of the Israelis that Hamas has chosen to use the civilian Palestinian population as a shield for its military activities. If you want to be pissed off about civilian deaths, be pissed off at the terrorist leaders of the Palestinian people that placed those civilians in harms way, and then continued to attack Israel, in violation of its signed cease fire agreements.

So, once again, what do you think Israel should do to protect its citizens from their neighbors who insist upon making war on their homeland? Should they continue to allow their men, women and children to be bombed on a daily basis, because the rest of the world thinks they are being mean? Or should they, as you would demand your government do, protect their civilians by using their military to eliminate the threat of an armed enemy who has stated they will not abide by any agreement that does not dissolve the state of Israel?

One last thought. The Palestinian people are not innocent in this, even if they are civilians. When they were given back the Gaza strip and the West Bank, after first destroying the greenhouses the Israelis left for them to use, they held elections. The Palestinian people elected Hamas, a recognized terrorist group, knowing their doctrine of war against Israel, and with the full understanding that the rest of the world might eliminated financial aid to their people. In other words, the Palestinians were given free elections, and a choice in their government. They got the government they wanted, a government that continued acts of war on a neighboring state. They have not called for their government to stop these acts of war, nor have they attempted to remove the terrorists from their government. Therefore the people of Palestine are as responsible for their current war with Israel as their government is. Just so you have a little idea of the history of the current flare up in this ongoing conflict.

[Bubba's Dad]

Hravan,

Lady Tera already beat me to all the good responses, so I will ask you a question in relation though. In your world of Nickelodeon diplomacy how long would a conflict last if your misguided idea of proportional response was put into effect? The Terrorist kill two Israelis, Israel kills two Terrorist. Although extremely "fair", no piece would ever be had. What if after the surprise attack at Pear Harbor the US would have only struck Japan until it sank 9 ships or killed a couple of thousand people, then stopped and waited for Japans next move? How long would a war like that last? You relied on the modern media to misinform you as to the meaning of a proportional response, and by the way, you never answered my original question, what is Israel to do? So, how about you try again?

[Bubba's Dad]

Here is an interesting story.

www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2009/01/06/2009-01-06_from_her_lips_to_gods_ear_the_fury_of_a_.html

Note the rocker attack on the Israeli kindergarten. At least is was not a UN Kindergarten hiding weapons.

And anothet good story.

www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1869807,00.html?xid=site-cnn-partner

Notice how the terrorist are relying on people like Hravan in the international community to act their allies.

[Bubba's Dad]

Another story coming out about this new war. Notice the liberal media bias in terming the 2006 war against Hezbollah as a 34 day stalemate. The reality is that Israel kicked but, but was stopped by France and other EU counties as well as the AP. Remember the AP photo shopped pictures? Any how, just more proof, if any is needed, that the world only like Jews when they are victims, but when they actually defend themselves, well that is a different thing all together. I still say, go Israel!

apnews.myway.com/article/20090108/D95IV5BG0.html

[Caunion]

I'll try to answer this as civilised as possible. Note this is all my opinion, so take it or leave it, I could care less.

Personally, I dislike both sides, mainly because the actions taken by both sides were unnecessary. In addition, I thought UN made a poor decision in creating an Israeli state from Palestine, essentially stealing land from them that was rightfully theirs. Even after the Holocaust. Do I feel sorry for them? Yes, definitely. But they should have gave a part of Germany and Poland for them, rather give up a land owned by people that were not involved in the Holocaust (as far as I know).

Well, there's nothing we can do about that so we're left with Israel and Palestine fighting. I'm sure none of this ever gets mentioned in Western news, but it is my opinion that most of Palestine simply wants to exist. They don't want Israel wiped off the map. They don't want this long and ceaseless war. Likewise, I'm quite confident there are some Israelis who want Palestine to be destroyed.

So what should Israel do? Certainly marching troops all over the Gaza is not going to help. Hamas has already a good majority of the people on their side through their large network of social programmes, people who fight for religious extremism. Israel should try to attempt to engage in social programmes for the Palestinians. This might sound way too idealistic, but I think if Israel build schools and hospitals for the Palestinians (even if they have to be run by Palestinian doctors and teachers), more Palestinians will be less willing to fight Israel and groups like Hamas and Hezbollah will be ignores. That may be, though, just wishful thinking.

[Bubba's Dad]

Hello Caunion,

Thank you for a reply. A couple of thoughts though. "Palestinians" are a relatively new people, there was never a Palestinian state. In the way back, when the Jews were on the march and came to places like present day Israel, they fought different clans of people long since gone from this world. Remember that the Jews were a power all their own until the Romans came along. Placing a Jewish sate in the middle east may well in deed of misplaced some locals, but had the Palestinians been placed on the west bank earlier in the 20th century, they too would have displaced local people.

So like you said, whats done is done. Israel is willing to allow for an independent Palestinian state, but Hamas, and most of Israels neighbors are unwilling to allow for an independent Jewish state, and they are vocal about it.

As far as Israel working for the good of the Palestinian folks, they have, past and present. Nothing can be done though for the Palestinians until the militant factions of Hamas are gone, thus the reason Israel has soldiers in Gaza. It is often overlooked that Egypt aids Israel in security measures, and aids the Palestinians in humanitarian measures, and they get blasted for it in the Arab press. It seems that Israel and Egypt are the only ones who want a co-existence over there. No matter how much Israel gives, it will never be enough until every Jew is dead. That is what the radical Islamic leadership over there wants, and they say it. Israel must defend their people.

[Esteleth]

Just a few thoughts, as I'm not really an expert on this subject.

But they should have gave a part of Germany and Poland for them, rather give up a land owned by people that were not involved in the Holocaust (as far as I know).

I can see where you're coming from, but historically, the Jewish people were not from Germany and Poland. They were from the middle east, I believe.

It seems that Israel and Egypt are the only ones who want a co-existence over there.

That strikes me as ironic, lol.

[Bubba's Dad]

I found this ironic as well. It is a bit off topic, but Israels first war plains were ME 109s! For those who do not know, the 109s were the main stay of the Nazi Air force. It seems that Czechoslovakia was the ONLY country who would sell war goods to Israel in 1948. While Britain was selling WW2 Spitfires to Egypt, and Syria, the world turned its back on the newly formed Israel. Czechoslovakia supplied all kinds of war surplus stuff to Israel, starting with 109s, captured German rifles, American B-17 flying Fortresses, and finally British Spitfires. The Israelis also got some American P-51s as well! From the start, the Israelis made the best of what they had, winning thier war of independents in 1949. Of corse, the fight has never really been over, only short breaks between the shooting. Go to the link below, click gallery, and go the the IAF page to see the P-51 with Israeli markings as well as the ME-109.

www.papermodels.co.il/