2nd Amendment/Gun control

[Bubba's Dad]

you all could probably guess my stand on the 2nd Amendment, but I thought that it would be fun to get some other opinions. Some of my thoughts are as follows.

Gun ownership is a right, foremost for personal protection, from individuals as well as a tyrannical Government. The right to have a gun is not for hunting or target practice, although that is a lot of fun.

When our Founding Fathers drafted the 2nd Amendment, the assault weapon of the day was a single shot muzzle loading smooth bore musket, complete with a 18 inch bayonet. Combined with the medical technology of the day, (or lack of) a shot from a musket that struck home had a high kill rate, although often the shot person might die hours or days later. Thomas Jefferson and his fellows might not have envisioned an AK-47, but nonetheless they trusted the people with the most high tech individual military weapon of the day, one that in it's day was as deadly as an AK is in today's world.

The 2nd Amendment is an individual right as are the others. This is how the Founders intended it, and this is how our Supreme Court recently confirmed it. One of the dissenting judges on that court actually questioned in his decent if we are to believe that the Founders would have written into the Constitution the tools of the Governments undoing. The answer is HELL YES! I can not believe that a judge of that level would even have to ask that. The 1st Amendment was primarily intended to protect political speech against the people in power, the fact that it is used as cover for the some news organizations to spread filth and lies is just a bi-product. The 1st, like the 2nd, are tools entrusted to the citizens of our country to keep government on the side of the people.

Finally, all rights come with responsibilities, and no right is absolute. Just as you may not yell fire in a theater with out consequences, you may not shoot pop cans in your front yard in a city block with out consequences.

So...just some thoughts. any others?

[Rhovanion]

Guns and weapons have always been viewed as something bad where I come from. You are not allowed to own a gun here unless you need it for say your profession (police force or whatever it may be) or if you're a hunter. I happen to agree with that. But I also think it's because I was raised in a non-violent culture, one that hasn't had a war or been to war in almost 200 years.

Where you come from, gun-ownership has been a right since basically the 'birth' of your nation. That's the kind of culture you grew up in.

Americans might argue that they feel safer with a gun in their home. I would feel absolutely unsafe if I knew somebody in my neighborhood had a gun in their home. I certainly wouldn't want to raise any kids in a neighborhood where people owned guns.

I hardly think it's a coincidence that two nations with such a high percentage of gun-ownership (the US and Finland) have had so many school shootings within the past few years.

[Bubba's Dad]

Thanks for your reply Rhovanion,
It is also no coincidence that schools are gun free zones, and this is were shootings still happen. Gun free zones are basically victim abundant zones. We never have shootings at gun shows, and States with lighter gun restrictions have less violent crimes committed. Vermont, a state that is known for extreme liberalism in all else, has no state gun laws. Yet Vermont has the lowest crime rate per population. And back when my uncle, who is a life time hunter, used to drive his pickup to school, complete with shotguns in the gun rack for after class hunting, you never read of school shootings.

Also, a gun culture and a violent culture are two different things. An armed society is a polite society, or as Ben Franklin put it, one sword keeps another in its scabbard. Guns do not enable criminals, but they do enable citizens to protect themselves. You will notice that violent crimes are still pretty high among the subjects of Britain. A criminal who breaks laws will use a bat, knife, pipe, brick or whatever, including an illegal gun, to do you harm. If you live in a restrictive society and you follow the law, you will be out matched every time. A legal gun in your hands could equalize the situation. And if guns were the cause of violent crimes, prisons would be the safest place on earth.

I find it interesting that your country has not been to war in 200 years. Did the people of your land in 1914 agree with Imperial Germany? Did they agree with or condone Hitler in the 30s and 40s? What about The Soviets during the cold war?

Neutrality is not non-violent, it condones violence. If your neighbor was beating his wife in the yard, to stay neutral would allow him to continue beating her, thus condoning it. Or you would be too afraid of retaleation, thus condoning it by inactivity. Or, perhaps, you would call the police, alowing him to beat her until they show up.

Your country either condoned evil in the past, or it feared the retaliation to a point of neutrality, or like calling the police, it simply had an abundance of others to do your fighting for you. Wars are not caused by those who are willing to fight for freedom, but rather by those who are willing to fight to remove freedoms.

You also say you would fear anyone in your neighborhood who has a gun. Do they have cars were you come from? More people in the US are killed by cars then by guns, yet here it is every teenager's dream to get behind their own body crusher just as soon as they can. And cars are not even a right, that is why the government can restrict, license and register them. But cars do not have some evil stigma attached to them, as do guns.

One last thing. My mother used to have a cartoon hung up in her kitchen for a number of years. In the cartoon it showed to people. One was the classic minuet man, with musket in hand ready to fight for his freedom. The other was a Chinese man with a broom in his hand facing down tanks in a square. Who ended up free?

[ladytera]

Oct 7, 2008 13:17:55 GMT -5 Rhovanion said:

Guns and weapons have always been viewed as something bad where I come from. You are not allowed to own a gun here unless you need it for say your profession (police force or whatever it may be) or if you're a hunter. I happen to agree with that. But I also think it's because I was raised in a non-violent culture, one that hasn't had a war or been to war in almost 200 years.

Where you come from, gun-ownership has been a right since basically the 'birth' of your nation. That's the kind of culture you grew up in.

Americans might argue that they feel safer with a gun in their home. I would feel absolutely unsafe if I knew somebody in my neighborhood had a gun in their home. I certainly wouldn't want to raise any kids in a neighborhood where people owned guns.

I hardly think it's a coincidence that two nations with such a high percentage of gun-ownership (the US and Finland) have had so many school shootings within the past few years.

BD answered the school shooting issue somewhat. I'd like to point out in places where an adult had a gun, those massacres were stopped before they got started. The cities in this country with the highest crime rates, including so called gun crimes (how the heck does a gun commit a crime?), are the ones with the heaviest restrictions on gun ownership. Washington DC is a prime example of that. Richmond is another good example. It had a huge crime problem, until the state became a shall issue state, meaning that unless your background check turned up a felony conviction the state had to issue a permit to carry a gun. Within a year violent crime had dropped dramatically. It seems that muggers, rapists and murderers are less likely to jump little old ladies or young women when the chances are the lady in question might be packing heat. There are also two cities here in Georgia where every home owner is required to own a gun. The instances of home invasion and burglary in those cities is dramatically less than in surrounding areas.

Let me pose a question for you. How safe will you feel, knowing there are no guns in your area, when an Al Qeada cell decides to target your neighborhood, or your malls, or your schools? The terrorist groups are operating all over Europe at the moment. Chances are, sooner or later, some will slip through. Do you believe that your secure knowledge that guns are bad will stop them from shooting you with one, or blowing up your neighborhood with IEDs? How safe will you feel when your government slides further and further toward fascism and you speak out, and the police show up on your doorstep with their guns and batons? How safe will you feel when a drug ring or gang moves into your area and begins bringing their violence along with them?

It is the responsibility of each citizen on this planet to protect themselves and those they love. If you believe entirely in pacifism, and are okay with going to meet your maker when someone decides it's time to snuff out your life, as the Amish are here, that's your prerogative. But it's short sighted and incredibly arrogant to try to deprive the rest of the world of their right and responsibility to defend themselves to the best of their ability.

And BTW, the only violence in the culture I was raised in comes in movies and video games. Do you also object to Grand Theft Auto and the multitude of gang movies out these days? Contrary to what you're media might tell you, Americans are not typically violent people, but we are also not doormats and punching bags for anyone who comes along wanting to strip us of our freedoms or our lives.