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Post by keyodie on Sept 10, 2008 17:25:05 GMT -5
We were discussing free will in the "Life" thread, and that thread kinda died... But I thought it was a good subject and hopefully we can revive the discussion. If you want to read what some other people said, it's all in the first page of the thread "Life". Go there now.So, do you think free will exists? Or do you think it's an illusion?
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Post by ladytera on Sept 21, 2008 2:24:06 GMT -5
I think it probably depends on your definition a little. I can't jump off a cliff and expect to fly, I can however get a hang glider, or I can expect to go splat. So, within the laws of physics, I think each of us was endowed at our creation with the freedom to chose our course in life, for good or ill. It's what makes us human.
Each choice leads to another choice, and sometimes we get to a place where all the choices are bad ones, but we still make the choices to get there in the first place.
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Joker
Student
How about a magic trick? *Dada*
Posts: 19
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Post by Joker on Sept 30, 2008 18:20:11 GMT -5
I agree with tera. There is freewill which causes people to make choices even though the choices we picked are not the best but as long as we are not biased by someone's ideas, we have freewill. Every and each human being are responsible for their actions. However, the definition of freewill may change depending upon a person's morals. Like we have the will to kill any person without no reason but we do not since there are, I believe, some limits to freewill. It kind of contradicts, is not it?
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Post by ladytera on Sept 30, 2008 22:09:52 GMT -5
I agree with tera. There is freewill which causes people to make choices even though the choices we picked are not the best but as long as we are not biased by someone's ideas, we have freewill. Every and each human being are responsible for their actions. However, the definition of freewill may change depending upon a person's morals. Like we have the will to kill any person without no reason but we do not since there are, I believe, some limits to freewill. It kind of contradicts, is not it? Not so much of a contradiction, if you think about it. You will only be biased by someone else's ideas if you allow yourself to be influenced by them. You will only be bound by the laws of man if you chose to follow them. It's still a choice, just not such a conscious one as what you'll have for dinner tonight. Like I said at first, even within the laws of physics, I have the choice to jump off the cliff, I just have to accept that the consequence will be a rough landing.
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Gil
Apprentice
teh spazzy queen
Posts: 54
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Post by Gil on Oct 1, 2008 15:55:49 GMT -5
I guess I have never questioned the existence of free-will...I mean, why wouldn't there be free will?
It makes my brain hurt to think about =P Someone enlighten me!
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Post by keyodie on Oct 1, 2008 17:02:58 GMT -5
Well I mentioned the idea that everything that happens to us in our lives is what shapes us as a person, and due to those events/occurrences the choices are sort of already made for us. If that makes any sense.
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Post by ladytera on Oct 4, 2008 12:55:10 GMT -5
Keyodie, you are right that everything that happens in our lives shapes us, but that doesn't eliminate our choices. You can have two people who come from the exact same circumstances and environment (well almost the exact same, we're all different, so we can't be exactly the same), and yet get two totally different outcome. You could have two rich kids, that are of the same race, social standing, had the same education, loving families, and yet one will grow up to be bright, happy and successful, while the other grows up to be an arrogant jerk who ends up in jail for embezzlement. You can have two poor kids, who grow up without a father, live in a slum, have a poor education, and yet one will grow up to be bright, happy and successful, while the other gets shot in a failed robbery. It all comes down to the choices you make in your life. Each of us is responsible for our own destiny. The circumstances, relationships, and events in our lives are merely the backdrop for the people we choose to be and the lives we choose to lead. We are each responsible for the decisions we make and the failures we have, else how could we ever achieve success, whatever our definition of that might be.
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Post by keyodie on Oct 4, 2008 13:50:28 GMT -5
Well yes, the environment is a factor. But so is genetics. Because of genetics, it would be impossible for any two people to become exactly the same person by living in the same circumstances.
Your last paragraph is something I've heard over and over from many different people, but how can you be so sure? If your religion is what gives you that certainty, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree there.
However, I really don't care if I have no "free will" as long as I feel like I'm doing what I want and living a happy life. Just because where I came from defines my choices doesn't mean I won't be happy. It just means that that's the kind of person I am.
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Post by ladytera on Oct 4, 2008 14:22:29 GMT -5
Well yes, the environment is a factor. But so is genetics. Because of genetics, it would be impossible for any two people to become exactly the same person by living in the same circumstances. Genetics probably does have to do with it a bit too. That's the whole nurture vs. nature argument. But it still comes down to what you choose to do with the life you are given. It's actually not my religion that gives me that certainty, although Christianity does reinforce and embrace the idea of free will. It is the evidence of the world around me and the people in it that gives me that certainty. Growing up in the Navy, I've met people from all walks of life, all over the country, and in studying people and history, I've seen all different types of people. The one thing they all have in common is that they have all made the choices that have resulted in the stories of their lives. Even deciding that you do not have free will, and that your life is predetermined, is in itself a choice. And that, from your personal perspective is perfectly okay. Most people, in their day to day lives, don't ponder the concept of free will, and are perfectly content with not knowing, or not caring about the subject. They are much more interested in living a happy life.
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Post by keyodie on Oct 4, 2008 17:55:05 GMT -5
Genetics probably does have to do with it a bit too. That's the whole nurture vs. nature argument. But it still comes down to what you choose to do with the life you are given. That doesn't really go against my theory/point/whatever you want to call it, because what you choose to do with your life would be affected by who you are, who you were shaped into. It's actually not my religion that gives me that certainty, although Christianity does reinforce and embrace the idea of free will. It is the evidence of the world around me and the people in it that gives me that certainty. Growing up in the Navy, I've met people from all walks of life, all over the country, and in studying people and history, I've seen all different types of people. The one thing they all have in common is that they have all made the choices that have resulted in the stories of their lives. Well yeah, people from two very different backgrounds can be alike and people from two very similar backgrounds can be polar opposites. There are many factors, including race, gender, environment, religion, genetics, and many many more. Again, that doesn't exactly counter what I've said because people make different choices depending on who they are. Of course the choices we make result in what we call our lives, I think everyone would agree to that. What you said is basically saying that causes lead to effects. Even deciding that you do not have free will, and that your life is predetermined, is in itself a choice. Hmmm I'm starting to think that you might be misunderstanding me. I'm not saying that where you come from defines your life and your choices, I'm saying that who you are defines your life and your choices. And how do we become the person we are today? Genetics, experiences, religion, and whatever else I mentioned up there. From my perspective as well as the perspective of pretty much everyone else in the world, possibilities are endless. In the present, when I'm stressed or overwhelmed, I tell myself "I can run away right now." I look out the window and it almost feels possible, and technically, it is. It is physically possible for me to run away from my responsibilities. But in the future, when I look back at that time... No, it wasn't possible. Why? I would have never been able to do it. I wouldn't have had the guts. It's not who I am. If I ran away, I would be leaving my responsibilities behind, but I would also be leaving behind people and things that I love. The way I grew up may have affected that "choice" also. I grew up in Japan, surrounded by over-achievers, surrounded by a people and a culture that was majorly about not causing too much trouble, being respectful, meeting expectations. So when you think about it, it's not really free will, though it may seem like it. I was never going to run away, I was never going to do it. Not a chance. I was going to be stuck with the responsibilities whether I wanted them gone or not.
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Gil
Apprentice
teh spazzy queen
Posts: 54
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Post by Gil on Oct 5, 2008 13:20:01 GMT -5
So what you're saying keyodie, is that it isn't some outside force, necessarily, that inhibits our free will - it's ourselves? Like, each individual puts their own limits on their own free will? I think I understand you in my head, but I can't put the words down here And I think that in that sense, you are right. But if we discuss the question of whether or not some outside force has an affect on our free will, then I would say no.
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Post by keyodie on Oct 5, 2008 13:40:29 GMT -5
Yes, basically, that's what I'm saying. xD The enviornment, genetics, race, religion, etc. in a way decides our lives for us because those are the things that make us who we are, the things that affect our decisions.
But no, I don't think there's a god that controls your each and every move. I don't think, anyway.
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Joker
Student
How about a magic trick? *Dada*
Posts: 19
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Post by Joker on Oct 11, 2008 6:06:52 GMT -5
Only obligation to free-will would be our morals, values. You gain them from the people surrounding you like your social circle. However, at the end, It is up to us to do anything we like though I believe there are some others who do not know what they are doing. Like drug addicts.
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Post by keyodie on Oct 11, 2008 10:00:18 GMT -5
Only obligation to free-will would be our morals, values. You gain them from the people surrounding you like your social circle. However, at the end, It is up to us to do anything we like though I believe there are some others who do not know what they are doing. Like drug addicts. Well if we gain our morals and values from the people surrounding us, is there really a choice as to who we are surrounded by? The people we are surrounded by before affects who we are surrounded by in the future, as well as hereditary traits. And as for drug addicts, there's a reason for that. A lot of them were probably exposed to drugs at a young age, due to the people that they're surrounded by. Sure, some of them might pull through and get away from all that, but some people just don't have another purpose in their life (or they see it that way) and don't see a reason to just do drugs until they die. I know, depressing, but once you're that far gone, there's not much to do. There's a reason for what they do just like there's a reason for anything anyone else does. I might be misunderstanding, but you make it sound like as long as you don't do drugs you're fine but as soon as you try or do drugs BAM! you don't know what you're doing.
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Post by Lady Dark Moon on Oct 12, 2008 23:31:41 GMT -5
Complete free will implies complete omniscience of consequences, outside influences, and chance. It's something only god(s) would have.
I agree with keyodie. Situation at birth+environment+genetics=character. Situation at birth determines the environment, which then determines the outside influences. Genetics determines what a person makes out of those influences.
I also think that free will is a necessary illusion for a functioning society. The criminal has to go to jail. We can't give him the excuse of "Oh, his genes weren't strong enough and his dad was an alcoholic and his mom died... aww okay we'll set ya free." So regardless of whether or not free will actually exists, we all have to pretend it does.
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Gil
Apprentice
teh spazzy queen
Posts: 54
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Post by Gil on Oct 14, 2008 21:33:55 GMT -5
Complete free will implies complete omniscience of consequences, outside influences, and chance. It's something only god(s) would have. I agree with keyodie. Situation at birth+environment+genetics=character. Situation at birth determines the environment, which then determines the outside influences. Genetics determines what a person makes out of those influences. I also think that free will is a necessary illusion for a functioning society. The criminal has to go to jail. We can't give him the excuse of "Oh, his genes weren't strong enough and his dad was an alcoholic and his mom died... aww okay we'll set ya free." So regardless of whether or not free will actually exists, we all have to pretend it does. Well said. I think that makes a lot of sense.
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Post by keyodie on Oct 15, 2008 6:56:14 GMT -5
Haha yes, it does. She often makes a lot of sense. xD I admire her ability to make sense.
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sakaido
Journeyman
Ryuichi+Coffee=Best icon ever.
Posts: 111
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Post by sakaido on Oct 17, 2008 8:43:00 GMT -5
This guy might make your brain hurt. But what he says makes sense. Really. Give it a chance? =/ If you can get around his swearing and accent. He has quite the potty mouth =/ www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkJTA1iQ3J0
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Post by keyodie on Oct 17, 2008 15:42:42 GMT -5
Yeah, I completely agree with pretty much everything he said. Well, everything he said about free will anyway. I don't remember what else he talked about. xD
Cool accent though. I wonder what it is...
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chiefgibson
Apprentice
I am Jack's smirking revenge.
Posts: 84
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Post by chiefgibson on Nov 6, 2008 17:56:26 GMT -5
As previously stated, it dose depend upon your definition.
Lets take a look at a fox. Just a normal fox in the wild. Think about the way it lives its life. It hunts, eats, drinks, poos, reproduces, explores its surroundings. Oddly enough all the things most mammals do. We as humans have a few more choices. Though we still have limitations within the atmosphere of the earth.
Free will must exist. If it didn't everything would be gray, there wouldn't be murder, we would be an efficient society, there would probably be more logic in the world. As humans, we are bound to nothing. We do what we want, go to the moon? Sure we can, and we will do much more as technology lets us. We never accept no as an answer. And we always get the answer.
However, again, it depends on your definition.
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