|
Post by keyodie on Oct 14, 2008 20:55:28 GMT -5
So, what is your opinion of the pledge of allegiance? Do you disrespect anyone who does not stand for the pledge? Do you still think that standing and reciting the pledge should be mandatory in public schools? What is your opinion on the addition of the words "under God"? (added in 1954) People that aren't from the states are allowed to participate. It'd be interesting to hear some perspectives from people of other countries.
|
|
Gil
Apprentice
teh spazzy queen
Posts: 54
|
Post by Gil on Oct 14, 2008 21:31:03 GMT -5
I love the pledge (although I often find it boring when I have to recite it ). I don't think that people should be forced to say it. One of my good friends is a Jehovah's Witness and won't say it during school. That's fine with me. That's her beliefs. I think if public schools want to require the saying of it, then they should go ahead and do it, but if students beliefs are against the pledge, they should be able to opt out from participating. As for "under God" - I think that it's perfectly acceptable to be in there. God/Creator is mentioned in both the Consitution and the Declaration of Independence, and our country's forefathers based our nation on Christian principles. People need to understand that. And even if you don't believe in/worship the Christian God, or any god at all, the "god" referred to in the pledge could be thought of in a more vague/figurative sense...just "one nation under a power that protects us". Just because we capitalize God doesn't mean it HAS to mean the Christian God. I think it could mean different things for different people Also, the first amendment give us the freedom of speech and allows anyone to say anything they want, practice (or not practice) any religion they want. However, it DOES NOT SAY that we can't talk about God, just because some people don't believe in Him. That would actually be violating the 1st Amendment. The end
|
|
|
Post by keyodie on Oct 15, 2008 6:52:11 GMT -5
Yes, God is mentioned in both of those things, but they went without saying 'under God' for over 60 years. I don't see why we would need to acknowledge it by saying it every day in the Pledge of Allegiance. Plenty of people have acknowledged it without it.
Also, I really don't think people of other religions would just be able to ignore the word by thinking of it in a figurative sense. Most people, when they hear the word god, will think of the Christian/Jewish God. Of course, it could be the God of another monotheistic religion, but they might not call him God. When a teacher mentions God or tells students what he believes, they're acknowledging in their head that they have a different belief. They aren't thinking "Ah, he believes in a power that protects us. Same here." What I'm trying to say is you can't expect people who do not believe in God to just pretend it means something else.
And I do realize that the first amendment gives us the right to freedom of speech, but I don't really think it's an issue here. Of course you can talk about God, I do not disagree with that at all. But reciting that the US is "one nation under God" while pledging allegiance to your country is a different issue. To me, it make as much sense as changing it to "one nation under the gods". That wouldn't make sense because not all US citizens are polytheistic, and there would be a huge outrage. But should we keep it "under God" just because it's a majority? (Sorry, I sound like I'm saying 'waa I'm a minority pay attention to me' but that's not my intention at all.)
Oh, I was just wondering, I don't stand for the pledge at school... But my History teacher is very conservative/religious and he asked me to at least stand. (Or that's the impression I got.) Of course I will do so, since to him when I don't stand it means I don't respect him and his beliefs. But do you have a similar opinion? Do you think people should at least stand when it's time to say the pledge?
|
|
|
Post by misaki on Oct 15, 2008 13:13:23 GMT -5
To be honest, the pledge has always been a typical example of American sentimental nonsense. Sorry to put it that way. But by the gods, pink invisible unicorns and whatnot...what USE is making people repeat the same damn thing every day? Do you seriously think they'll commit one less crime because of it? That it would change any terrorist's mind from blowing something up? No. Of course not. To me, it's just another example of false sentimentality and I think mentioning God is VERY offending. I'm not a believer in any sense of the word. But I do respect the idea of god. And face it people. God is not for the US. God is for everyone. One nation under God to me sounds like it's God's chosen people or something. God hasn't done politics for hundredths of years, dears. The Iraqi's are one nation under God too. So are the Afghans. Or the Swedes. In fact, I think God doesn't do nations at all, if he does exist. Sorry guys, if you want the gods to choose a side, go worship Zeus or something. He's more inclined to kill some enemies, at least if you ask Homer. [/rant] Aside from that, I think it's perfectly harmless, and I guess every country has it's weird customs. I really do like the liberty and justice part. But honestly, I can't imagine saying something like that even once without a giggling fit. So dramatic. Plus, pledging allegiance to any country sounds pretty pathetic to me. I'm a member of the global family, that's all. But that's just a personal thing.
|
|
Eä
Student
I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it ~ Voltaire
Posts: 35
|
Post by Eä on Oct 15, 2008 16:37:59 GMT -5
The Pledge of Allegiance... to me as a non-American it has always meant something very American. I don't think I fully get it to be honest and therefore I don't have a passionate opinion about it. :-) But I have sort of a question nevertheless. When I was in the US and people stood for the flag and said the Pledge I never knew what I was supposed to do or what was expected of me. I didn't recite the Pledge with them... first of all because I didn't know it by heart but more importantly because it didn't feel right that I should pledge my allegiance to another country's flag, no offence meant to you Americans. :-) So I just stood with the others but I didn't place my hand over my heart though. And I did it out of respect for their country and the situation. Everyone there knew I was a foreigner but I just think it would have looked silly and perhaps even disrespectful if I had remained seated, much like keyodie's reasons for standing when her history teacher is in the room. So for me the important thing was to show my respect for the people I was with. And I think it was more important than any principles I might have had.... which kind of shows that I don't have any firm principles on this topic anyway... ;-) So how do you think people would expect a foreigner to do during the Pledge?
|
|
|
Post by keyodie on Oct 15, 2008 17:05:50 GMT -5
Actually, my history teacher said at the beginning of the year that he has little to no respect for US citizens who do not say the pledge. He thinks it is alright for a foreigner not to stand.
And yeah, when I really think about it, it seems a bit... Like Aerlinn said, dramatic. I don't have a problem with it though. I'm not exactly the most patriotic person here (what do you expect, I was born in Japan ;D) but I think it's great that there's something that all Americans can participate in to show their love for their country. But yeah, you're basically reciting words to a flag. To many people, that's really all it is. We say it every day, it's no big deal to most. I bet a lot of people haven't even looked at the meaning of what they're saying.
Aerlinn, I also agree with the part about 'one nation under God'. It just comes off as a bit arrogant to me.
|
|
|
Post by Caunion on Oct 15, 2008 18:37:55 GMT -5
I personally found the entire bloody pledge absurd because every day I'm required to stand up and say I'm giving my loyalty to the United States of America. Thanks, but no. I don't have any love for this nation, much less have any desire to swear irreversible fidelity to it. Even if it's a petty sentimentality, it's still rather ridiculous.
What astonishes me is that they're teaching children to pledge allegiance to a country they don't fully understand. At the age of 7, they're expected to become loyal to the United States. At the age of 7, I don't think they have an idea what the United States really is. Well, rather, a clear reasonable idea. It's like expecting a seven year old to understand why Christianity is so great and you have to pray to Jesus every day. So to me, the Pledge is a nationalist sentimental statement.
As for "under God", that's even more absurd. As Aerlinn said, countless countries stated that God was on their side. One of the main reasons why people began moving to America so they wouldn't have to worry about countries proclaiming God's on their side. Because once you start believing God's on your side, that means he agrees with everything the country does and the country agrees with everything God says. And we all know how that turns out.
Plus the beginning of that phrase is just ridiculous. People only started saying "under God" with the pledge and our money started having "In God We Trust" on them because America wanted to make sure everyone knew they were different from the "atheist Communists". Ha! I just had a revelation from that that makes some sense but...I won't say it here. It's off topic.
|
|
|
Post by Bubba's Dad on Oct 15, 2008 18:47:59 GMT -5
All of you kids out there who think the Pledge is some how mellow dramatic or silly are just showing your lack of insight and lack of appreciation for you Country. Call it teen blues, call it ignorance, I call it being spoiled rotten to the point that you no longer deserve the rights that that flag, the symbol of freedom, represents. I bet that if you were ever denied an opportunity to publish a whiny letter in you school newspaper, then all of a sudden it would be 1st amendment this and 1st amendment that. The flag represents those freedoms and rights many on this site take for granted. The pledge is not some strange chant intended on crime prevention or the stopping of terror bombings, but rather it is a daily reminder to all that we must strive to uphold those values, dare I say it, AMERICAN VALUES, that so many have fought and died for. It is also a pledge to do right by the Republic, our country, our fellow citizens. It is a reminder too, that this country fought a bloody Civil War, a war that forged us into a free and United people. And some of you say that God offends you, yet you seem unconcerned that your lack of faith offends many of us. And guess what, you have no right to not be offended, that’s the great thing about this Country. You offend me, and that’s OK. That’s part of that Liberty and Justice for all. And one last thing about the pledge, it gives all Americans common ground, our country is so large and filled with Americans from so many different back grounds, the pledge, like our Constitution, unites us. As for the Foreigners out there, I do not expect you to get it, nor do I expect you to Pledge to our flag. I do expect you to stand out of respect, not to the flag, but rather for those who are pledging. Americans abroad stand for other countries National Anthems and pledges, as a sign of respect. Foreigners and whiny spoiled un-American Americas alike should show respect by removing ones hat and standing. Some call it good manners.
And by the way, our money started having "in God We Trust" on it in 1864, during the Civil War, long before Red October in Russia. It was the same year that we started A National Day of Thanks Giving. I guess, though, that you folks are so much more insightful and intellectual then Abe Lincoln. "Under God" was added to our pledge in 1954, long after the Reds took over Russia, during a period when world wide Armageddon was a real possibility.
Most people in the US, and all good US leaders never say that God is on our side, but rather that we pray that we are on the side of God. Read more of A. Lincoln's speeches for more insight on God-Country relationship.
|
|
|
Post by keyodie on Oct 15, 2008 19:58:01 GMT -5
Bubba's Dad, I respect your opinion and I respect your love for America. But I find it a bit condescending when you refer to the people who have shared their perspectives in this thread "kids", and you've hinted at our younger age a couple times before. I do realize that the more experience you gain, the more wisdom you gain. But everyone in the world, even kids in elementary school, have gone through different experiences and we all have different pieces of knowledge to share.
It's also a bit degrading to call us whiny. We all have a reason for our beliefs, so instead of lecturing and even saying that these "teenagers" don't deserve freedom, it would be great if you could counter our arguments in a way that we can respond to them.
I am EXTREMELY concerned about offending Christians. I live in Georgia, I live in an EXTREMELY conservative and religious town. I always watch my tongue and I always watch what I say in order to not offend. But I have been offended time and time again because most Christians I've met in this place think that because I don't follow an organized religion, I can't be offended. It goes both ways. So please, let's not start pointing fingers.
Again, I respect your opinion and your love for you country, I respect America, and I acknowledge what a privilege we have here. There's just a bit of the pledge that I disagree with, and I would greatly enjoy discussing it or debating it with you.
|
|
|
Post by ladytera on Oct 16, 2008 3:58:44 GMT -5
Keyodie, that was a lovely rebuttal. I'll let BD respond for himself. But I will say it's been a very tumultuous day in our household, and we're all a little cranky.
That being said. I'm not going to address each post, but to those of you who find the pledge an irritating chant, or a tool for forcing young children to pledge loyalty to something they don't understand, I have to say that you feel that way because the schools are doing a poor job of teaching history these days. The Pledge of Allegiance at the primary school age, is primarily a tool to teach children about the basic ideals that bind us together as one people. It's difficult for a five year old to understand the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution. Both documents are filled with big words and archaic language that most young children can't wrap their heads around. The Pledge, on the other hand is simple statement that can be explained fairly easily, and encompasses the major ideas involved. This thread started off with the text of the Pledge of Allegiance, but how many of you have been taught, or pondered on your own, what the individual pieces of that very short text mean?
Recently, I've had cause to ponder this very subject. As some of you may know, I am a Webelos Den leader. That's the last step in the Cub Scout program. As young as six, we teach the kids the pledge of allegiance, and talk about good citizenship, and the importance of the flag. But in Webelos, which is the 9-10 year olds, we actually break down what the pledge itself means.
I pledge allegiance - I promise to be true to the flag - the symbol of our country of the United States of America - a country made up of 50 states, each with certain rights of their own and to the Republic - a country where the people elect their fellow citizens to make laws for them for which it stands - the flag means the country one nation under God - a single country whose people believe in religious freedom indivisible - the country cannot be split into parts with liberty and justice - with freedom and equal protection under the law for all. For every citizen of the country
Each phrase of the pledge has a significance to it that explains a part of the concept of what it means to be a citizen of this country. It is designed as a quick reminder of our rights and responsibilities as citizens of this country. And for those of us who are a little older (not to denigrate the contributions of the younger members here), and have seen, or studied and understood a little more of the history of this country, as well as other countries around the world, it is a reminder and a sign of respect for all those, from our founders forward who have stood strong and firm, often to the point of laying down their lives, to assure that we have the gift of this unique and free country. I is, as well, a reminder of the responsibility we bear, as adult citizens of this country, to stand strong and firm to assure that you, as the next generation receive the same gift from us, and are taught to understand what it means.
So, while I perhaps understand your reticence over the word God, which by the way, has always been a generic God, rather than the Christian God, in all of our founding documents, and I understand you ennui with reciting the pledge every day, to me it has a deep and abiding meaning. And I hope, one day, as you have the opportunity to grow in experience and understanding, it will have a deeper significance for you as well.
Just a side note, did you know that as little as 15 years ago, in many movie theaters around the country, a picture of a waving flag along with the national anthem was played as a prelude to the movie, and the audience was expected to stand in respect until it was done. It wouldn't surprise me if many theaters on military bases still practice this, but I find it a little sad that it has been abandoned elsewhere.
|
|
Raivynn
Journeyman
...my winter storm
Posts: 187
|
Post by Raivynn on Oct 16, 2008 12:36:15 GMT -5
I'm not from America. So I guess my opinion isn't that important.
However...It's not something I feel should be taught at school. But instead in the home, much like personal religious beliefs. Perhaps I'm just bitter, because from a young age I was forced into standing up and reciting the Lord's prayer (I think that's what it was called, forgive my bad memory) and also to stand up for the Queen on Xmas Day during her boring speech, also to sing God Save the Queen.
I know it may not be considered the same thing.
|
|
|
Post by Bubba's Dad on Oct 16, 2008 15:18:54 GMT -5
Keyodie,
You are quite correct that all people have different experiences and form opinions on all subjects. I will repeat here some parts of that knowledge some on this site have decided to share, and in part why I call it whining. Perhaps it was an unfair action to deliver a blanket statement to you all, however, that was not my point. A quick review on the more telling parts of this thread will back me up.
Raivynn Phenix- “I’m just bitter…I was forced into standing up and reciting the Lords prayer and also to stand up for the Queen…”
So much for respect for your elders. Common politeness and respect are commodities few under 30 value these days. Of the many things that can happen to one when they are young, this is not something to feel bitter about. It is just whining.
Caunion- “I found…the pledge absurd because everyday I’m required to stand up and say I am giving my loyalty to the United States of America. Thanks, but no. I don’t have any love for this nation…”
So, are you whining because you, like the Queen hater above, are forced to stand up, or because you live in the most free nation in the world. Many have given their lives for you to have the right to spew your distain for this great land. Your lack of respect is shocking, of coarse that is what so many of the youth today are all about. If you are not under 20, then you sure act like it.
Aerlinn- “…the pledge has always been a typical example of American sentimental nonsense.”
So, the pledge is typical American sentimental nonsense? What are other typical examples in your super elevated view? May be when our leaders take the oath of office? May be wedding vows? I guess that you agree with O. that we are bitter and cling to our guns and religion too. What is typical in this country is individual freedoms, equality under the law, and endless opportunity. The pledge simply reminds us of the great things about this country, things that you seem to look upon as sentimental, quaint, old fashion.
These are some high lights. In this, and in other post many of the posters on this site have taken every opportunity to bash others believes, insult this great country, and whine about the state of their own being. Come on, bitter because you have to stand up for an elder, or your countries National Anthem? Some of you have the mind set that it would be a bad thing if some one gave you $1000.00 in silver coins because it would suck trying to carry the load. You have all this opportunity, but whine because there are things that are expected of you. That goes for you folks in Britain too. You want it all, but you want to bitch about having it too. You have it too good, I guess, and that is why I call you spoiled. Again, unfair to some perhaps, but there it is. And by the way, if you are under 30 and have never been in the military or served as a cop or fireman, or have taken on some other major life responsibility, then you have the mind set of a kid.
|
|
Raivynn
Journeyman
...my winter storm
Posts: 187
|
Post by Raivynn on Oct 16, 2008 15:45:32 GMT -5
Okay first off. I'm not "under 30". I'm 32, a scratch over 30 to be true. But don't generalise someone just because they don't fit in with your world view or agree with something.
Secondly. While I did actually put the "I'm bitter" part as a jokey thing. I stand by what I said. You have NO idea what I was put through, by my own flesh and blood. Spat on and called names because I didn't want to stand up or had no interest in the Queen. Do you think it's right to be shunned by "elders" because I don't follow there line of thinking? Respect works both ways imo. Is that right to you? Can you perhaps understand why I'm resentful?
Or can all you see is a "Queen Hater"?
Which makes me laugh, because again. You have no clue as to what you're talking about. Don't ever...ever label me when you know nothing about me. No I am not a Royalist in any way, shape or form. But to call me a Hater, states that I hate this person. When I do NOT. I'm just firmly against a Monarchy. I don't care wether it's the current Queen, her mother before her. Charles, William or Harry to come. It's not a personal thing about them. It's my own view on things.
As for this...
...is as patronising as it gets. Please stop it. Just because someone is younger than you, doesn't make them or there opinions and views less valid.
|
|
Rhovanion
Apprentice
La Danse Macabre
Posts: 53
|
Post by Rhovanion on Oct 16, 2008 16:08:23 GMT -5
I don't have any passionate opinion on the US Pledge of Allegiance (hey, whatever floats your boat!) but I do have a passionate opinion on being forced to respect or honor something simply because "it's expected of you as a citizen of that country". Seems a little like Mao's China to me. If the US is supposedly the "most free world" as self-proclaimed, then all US citizens should also be free to choose for themselves when and what to honor, regardless of historical significance. Simple as that. And some of you say that God offends you, yet you seem unconcerned that your lack of faith offends many of us. Say what? So does that mean you're offended by the roughly 4 billion people on this earth who are not Christians, simply because... they're not Christians? How can lack of faith (in itself) be offensive?! And by the way, if you are under 30 and have never been in the military or served as a cop or fireman, or have taken on some other major life responsibility, then you have the mind set of a kid. Since when is age or profession relevant to the mindset of a person? I thought that came with experiences in life - regardless of what they are, when they occurred in your life or what your current age is.
|
|
|
Post by keyodie on Oct 16, 2008 16:34:18 GMT -5
I'll let some of the other members reply to the other parts of your post.
There have been a couple instances where members have bashed other people's beliefs, but it is a stretch to say many of the posters on this site have taken every opportunity to bash others.
People on this forum have been extremely mature, I would even call them the most mature group of people I have come across out of all the forums I have encountered. There have been disagreements, but there have been very few instances where people have bashed. If many of the posters here have taken every opportunity to bash others, compared to them you've bashed a fair share yourself. I'm not saying that you have, but I think your statement is very exaggerated.
On other forums I've been on, people call each other names. They outright disrespect people of other political standings and religious values. They cuss at each other. I have yet to see that level of "bashing" on this forum from a regular member.
Right, because as soon as anybody hits that 30th birthday BAM! they get hit with wisdom. Wow. I can't wait. No wonder every single 30 year old and above in this world is so wise, no wonder I have never met an immature adult. Oh and of course a person's occupation determines maturity level. That's why every policeman, every fireman, every single soldier is so mature.
I apologize for my cynicism and sarcasm up there, but unfortunately, there is no way to generalize an entire group of people. Here you are generalizing people under 30, people older than 30, and people of particular occupations. You do not know all these people.
I find what you said highly offensive. This is a debate about the pledge of allegiance, and if you really want your opinion taken seriously, do not take this to a personal level. If you want to be taken seriously, speak calmly and in a respectful manner. A couple people in this thread that love the pledge have explained their opinion very calmly and said very clearly why they believe what they do without trying to be condescending.
This forum is here so you can exchange ideas with people of other opinions, and it is here so you can support your beliefs. This place has been very beneficial to me because I now have a much better understanding of why people believe in their religion, why people are against abortion, gay marriage, and any of the other wide variety of topics we have discussed here. Previously, I had thought that there was no good reason for anyone to believe any of these things, but now I know better. I'm sure others have done the same. However, it is important to realize on a forum such as this that a statement that you disagree with is not an insult against you personally.
|
|
Eä
Student
I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it ~ Voltaire
Posts: 35
|
Post by Eä on Oct 16, 2008 17:06:32 GMT -5
Bubba's Dad, I know you didn't 'attack' my own post, but I have to comment on your latest post anyway. I think it contained some very arrogant and narrow-minded views. Like I said earlier I don't have a strong opinion on the Pledge so I'm sorry if I take this slightly off-topic.
I won't address your replies to the other members who posted as I am sure they are perfectly fit to defend themselves. I will stick to the general accusations in your post. I find you are not only attacking people's experiences and opinions, you are judging them based on that and not for their arguments. If we are to debate in a reasoned manner we must respect the varied opinions and I think you fail to acknowledge others. You are arguing based on an assumed premise that the United States of America is the world's greatest and finest nation, which I might be able to live with, since everyone has the right to be patriotic about their country. I don't agree, but that's not my point. However, what offends me here is that you measure other peoples behaviour, opinions and personal experiences to that standard premise of yours, without they having agreed to discuss within this premise. This way you can successfully judge the entire nation of Great Britain and label them spoiled. It came out of the blue. No one here stated they are British so why drag that into the debate? I think Phoenix might be British, and you might be referring to discussions you had in other threads, but I see no particular reason to use the UK as an example of bad behaviour here, especially when you only do it to spit out a harsh accusation about them being spoiled. A very subjective opinion that doesn't prove a point. Furthermore, you are judging everyone under 30 years, and when you very well know that the great majority here is under 30 it can only be regarded as downright insolent patronising. I don't know you and your personality that well since I'm new to the forum. You might know perfectly well how provocative your statements are and be chuckling to yourself about the uproar you have - perhaps purposely - caused among the 'youngsters' here, but if that's the case I think that is a very odd form for humour. And honestly I don't understand why you keep such an offensive tone in your posts. If your mission is to make us young louts learn the lesson and understand your educative points, I think your communication failed with the more or less random attacks on people who are not Americans, have never been cops, are British and whatnot. Criticism never opened other peoples minds to other viewpoints.
|
|
Hravan
Journeyman
Life is a Musical
Posts: 106
|
Post by Hravan on Oct 16, 2008 17:09:39 GMT -5
Ok, firstly I'm not from the USA and before this thread I'd never heard of the Pledge of Allegiance, so my opinion really don't count for much. Anyhoo.... I don't really see a problem with it... I do think being made to say it in school is a bit much.... Maybe it should just be reserved for special occasions and events etc Like Raivynn Phoenix said, something similar here is "God save the Queen." However, I don't mind standing for it or even singing it. To me, the Monarchy represents everything that is British. Whether good or bad, the Queen = Britain to me. Without the Monarchy I just see us turning into a little America. Now before you all jump down my throat, I don't hate America, but I don't want to live there. I'm British through and through. Imagine a monarchy, even a symbolic monarchy being installed in the USA. Imagine how you would feel. It would take away everything that symbolises America. It would take you back to when you were ruled by Britain. If we lose the monarchy then we lose everything that symbolises Britain. So for me, standing for "God Save the Queen" is a mark of respect for everything that is British. But having to stand for it everyday in school is pretty ridiculous. But one thing that gets to me is that most people my generation don't know the words to it. I didn't even know the words until I joined the Air Training Corps (air cadets). I knew the chorus beforehand as my mother taught it to me when I was young but I didn't know the verses. But hardly anyone my age knows it and that annoys me. We were never taught about it, ever. I don't think we should be forced to learn it, but I do think that it should be included in the curriculum, maybe as part of History or as part of the Citizenship program we have to do. Actually, why the hell isn't it in the Citizenship program?! It's part of being a British citizen! But, of course, the PC brigade would kick up a massive stink so it'll never happen. Now as for the "God" bit, I have mixed feelings. Again, I don't know much about the Pledge of Allegiance so I'll compare it to something British. I don't see the whole "God save the Queen" being actually God as in the Christian God supporting the Queen (Britain) and being on the Queen's "side" so to speak. I see it as the Queen, the Monarchy, never dieing. AKA Britain never dieing. And I can see how the same kind of symbolism might apply to the Pledge. However, most of the time it's taken literally. Now if someone doesn't believe in God or any god yet they have to say they do in the Pledge, then the Pledge is void. How can you swear by something if you don't believe in it? I had this problem with the Cadet Promise. "I Cadet *Name*, hereby solemnly promise on my honour to serve my Unit loyally and to be faithful to my obligations as a member of the Air Training Corps. I further promise to be a good citizen and to do my duty to God and the Queen, my Country and my Flag." Now if an atheist swore to that then they would be lying because they can do their "duty by God" because they don't believe in any form of God. It's all well and good saying "Oh they can imagine it means something else, or represent something else" but the words that actually come out of your mouth, and what comes out of your mouth is what matter not what you think, will be lies. If you're in court and the judge is asking about something you said, it doesn't matter what you were thinking or imagining the words to mean, what matters is what you actually said out loud and what the common definitions of those words are. And now I think I've just complete nullified my argument about "God Save the Queen." Oh well, if anyone wants to pick apart my post feel free... I know there are gaping holes. I probably shouldn't try to explain my opinions when I'm completely shattered... (In case you're wondering, yes I did say the Promise in full as I do believe in a form of god.)
|
|
|
Post by keyodie on Oct 16, 2008 17:17:26 GMT -5
Actually, saying it in school every day used to be mandatory. That has changed now, though.
|
|
Hravan
Journeyman
Life is a Musical
Posts: 106
|
Post by Hravan on Oct 16, 2008 17:30:29 GMT -5
That goes for you folks in Britain too. You want it all, but you want to bitch about having it too. You have it too good, I guess, and that is why I call you spoiled. Again, unfair to some perhaps, but there it is. Ahem, since when have you met every British person in the world? Now I could call all Americans rude, obnoxious, racist and ageist, based upon your post and how America is portrayed in the news and popular culture over here, yet I don't. In fact, all the Americans I have met have been the loveliest people I know. I know that not every American is the same. I know that they all hold different opinions and I have not right to judge them seeing as I have no idea what actually living in America is like. Surprisingly, I don't make sweeping about people of different nationalities. Thankfully, because I don't respect my elders, I'm not a racist.
|
|
sakaido
Journeyman
Ryuichi+Coffee=Best icon ever.
Posts: 111
|
Post by sakaido on Oct 16, 2008 18:41:05 GMT -5
I told Keyo I wouldn't reply to this. But I can't help it.
I've only ever said the pledge one time in my life. the first day of kindergarten.
I went home, and asked my dad what it meant. He explained his view that it was a pledge of patriotism. And one nation under god was INTENDED to mean the biblical god.
I never saw a reason to say it again.
I understand, and understood the figurative meaning that "one nation under god" can mean, because my dad started teaching me at a really young age [around three] that there's more than just the one religion and respect for others no matter what they believe.
But how many children in elementary school do you really think understand that? That the line can mean only a greater power?
Really?
I also didn't see a reason to voice my patriotism. I was born here. But I saw no reason not to love the world as a whole. I wanted to know why it didn't say "one world under god"
I was five and I wanted world peace.... It wasn't so defined in my head. But I just had a feeling that the world as a whole needs respect. Love everyone, not just the people who live in your country. I was an anti-war kid straight outta the womb.
I don't think it should be mandatory. I got in trouble a fair few times because I didn't say it. We have a freedom of choice. that should apply to anything that doesn't harm anyone. Like saying the pledge. If freedom is what was fought for, freedom is what should be extended to all aspects of life.
|
|