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Post by Bubba's Dad on Oct 16, 2008 19:38:07 GMT -5
Wow, did I start a brush fire.
OK, first off. I never meant to attack any one from Britain, in fact look at my post, I was simply saying that all people should appreciate the opportunities they have, both here in the US, as well as in England, another free and opportunity rich country. I was also questioning rather people who claim to have an issue with standing for the pledge, (or standing for God save the Queen) actually have an issue with the pledge or if the issue is with being asked to show the respect due? My comment about having it too goes still stands, both for the Brits on this site and the Americans. I did not have to meet everyone, as my comment was not directed at everyone, just those on this site who seem to not like what they have.
Second, age. Rhovanion answers her own question in her post, when she responded with “Since when is age or profession relevant to the mind set of a person? I thought that that came with experiences in life…” Such was my point. I might have used more tact, but unless you have been around the block a time or two, or acquired life experiences at an accelerated rate, by happenstance or choice (such as profession) you have less experiences and a more limited view on life then some one who is older. As this relates to the topic at hand, I was simply wondering if peoples objections to the Pledge has more to do with lack of appreciation for those things the Pledge represents, rather then with the Pledge its self?
Rhovanion also asked if lack of faith offends me. No, it dose not, just as it is not my faith in God that offends some on this site, but rather my voicing that faith, as some one voicing their lack of faith could be offensive to me. And as I said, that’s OK. We are allowed to offend people here, it is one of our freedoms.
Raivynn Phoenix, when I call you the Queen hater, it was a flippant remark, probably out of line. However, it was not meant as a personal attack, but rather as a reference to your earlier post. My bad, to use the vernacular of the day. And no, I do not think your family was right in spitting on you, but would it have killed you to stand as a show of respect, not for the Queen herself. but for what she represents. And I would not ask you to follow your elders line of thinking just because they are your elders, but a show of respect is required, if you want theirs.
And EA, (sorry, I do not know how to do the .. thing above the mini A, I can barely type as is.) I never attack the whole of Britain, in fact just the opposite as I have already stated. And if I have been judging people based on their experiences, and not their arguments, as you say, it is because they have used their experiences as the argument. Such as, I find the Pledge wrong because they forced me to stand for it, and so on. No if one wants to argue over Constitutional grounds, I am all for that, but I tried that on the Abortion thread and got no traction. In fact, I was soundly rejected on the point that I was a guy and there for my opinion/ideas/feelings did not hold weight. Talk about generalizing.
And what about calling people whiners. Actually, I was calling what they were doing, whining. And that is what it sounded like.
And lastly, I suppose I was generalizing when I said most people under 30 have the same mind set as kids. Perhaps I should have said teenagers, as kids may lead you to believe I was talking about nine years old. If a person has never had a reason to expand their experiences, bad and good, then they are limited. Not necessarily immature, but limited. Most young mothers grew up pretty quickly. Most military personnel are able to handle extreme responsibility, at least while in the service, regardless of age. Again, let me be clear, people under 30 (my dad would say under 50) have limited life experiences, unless they are in a situation were they have obtained them. This dose not make people under 30 less mature or people over 30 more so, and I think that is what got many of you so riled. So yes, I was generalizing, just like I say most of Canada is cold in the winter. it is generalizing, sure, but nonetheless, true. This was not meant as insulting but rather as a possible reason as to some people true objections.
Oh, Yah, some one did say that they had no love for this country and said so in an objectionable tone. You all, sorry, there I go generalizing again, some of you jumped on me for knocking the whole of England, when I did not, but this comment just slid by. I guess on this site, as most other, it's a great thing to bash this Country, Can you understand my feelings yet?
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Post by Lady Dark Moon on Oct 16, 2008 20:18:29 GMT -5
Okay I'm going to pretend like a raging inferno didn't just sweep the last twenty posts. Bubba's Dad has been soundly whipped for his offense, so I shall refrain from beating him some more First of all, I am a teenager. I love this country. America has given me life, passion, and the freedom to stand up for my beliefs. However, I do not believe in reciting the Pledge every morning. 1. It gets old. Recite something every day of your life, and it quickly becomes commonplace, habitual, dull. The words lose their meaning. Granted, there are moments during which I can feel the Pledge's power. When I was transformed into a U.S. citizen, for example. Or on Independence Day, shouting it in a field together with a thousand Americans. But every morning? The Pledge is sacred. Recite it too many times, and it loses that sanctity. 2. Being a good American citizen has nothing to do with standing up and reciting words. A pledge is nothing. Vows are easily broken. Cliche, but I think that actions speak louder than words. Donations to charity. Community service. Participation in democracy. THOSE are the actions that count, the marks of a good citizen. Words don't help people, words can't make this country better, and words don't feed hungry mouths. By the way, I do recite the Pledge every morning. I'm usually half asleep when I do so.
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Post by keyodie on Oct 16, 2008 20:21:44 GMT -5
Yes, someone indeed did say that. But saying that you do not have love for your country is stating a fact and not referring to anyone except the person who posted it. You, on the other hand, referred to the people of Britain as spoiled. That is a different matter, whether you meant it or not.
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Post by Bubba's Dad on Oct 16, 2008 21:57:23 GMT -5
I did not refer to the people of Britain as spoiled. I referred to some people on this site, from England and the US, and questioned the real reason behind their feelings. I felt that one reason may be that they are spoiled with freedom and rights that they take for granted. That is, I will say it again, some of the people on this site. Read my posts, not the cropped quotes. I never said anything about England (or any other country).
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Post by keyodie on Oct 16, 2008 22:08:10 GMT -5
Well actually I did go back to your post, and I do understand that it may have come out the wrong way. I do the very same thing, far too often. But when I read it again, it really did seem a lot like you were calling everyone in Britain spoiled.
That isn't my point though. My point is that that still doesn't change the fact that while you were referring to other people, the person who denied his love for his country was only referring to himself. My point is that this site does accept the bashing of the US and not the bashing of other countries like you think. I was responding to your comment about "this site" letting his comment slip by.
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Post by Lady Dark Moon on Oct 16, 2008 22:12:33 GMT -5
I did not refer to the people of Britain as spoiled. I referred to some people on this site, from England and the US, and questioned the real reason behind their feelings. I felt that one reason may be that they are spoiled with freedom and rights that they take for granted. That is, I will say it again, some of the people on this site. Read my posts, not the cropped quotes. I never said anything about England (or any other country). But the point still stands that you made personal attacks against people, not against their arguments. Those people were offended. Heck, even I was incensed just reading your posts, and you weren't even referring to me specifically. Something about what you said or simply your wording was highly inflammatory. Yes, I do realize that this is a "debate." Perhaps we can all just chill.
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Post by Bubba's Dad on Oct 16, 2008 22:38:12 GMT -5
Well Lady Dark Moon considering I have been "whipped soundly" I am surprised with your latest post. At any rate, when people support their opinions using personal stories then are those stories not fair game to question? The worst you can say is that I called some peoples reasoning for not liking the Pledge as whiny. I have went to lengths to clarify my earlier posts as far as reference to age and such. Now, go read the thread on Abortion, and see how some see a persons sex as a disqualification for debating. That could be considered personal, but hay, thick skin and all that.
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Post by keyodie on Oct 16, 2008 23:02:03 GMT -5
One reason I'm against minority rights, and one reason that I'm slightly annoyed at some of the minorities, is because they victimize themselves. No matter what the circumstance, they're the victims because of their gender or race and whatnot. I'm sure you also have your reasons for being against minority rights.
However, I'm starting to see the same thing coming from you. You're forgetting to mention the fact that people here, people in this thread, have been offended by your words and you have yet to say anything that even resembles an apology. But you have mentioned, more than once, what happened in another thread. In that thread, yes, it was said that females should have the choice because it is their body. But what that person said was not specifically directed at you. Nobody said "You don't have a right to say this because you are a male." Nobody said that. If they did, I would strongly disapprove.
Most everyone in this thread has now been offended in some way or another. Let's try to move on from this fact and talk about the topic at hand instead of straying further away from what this thread was started for.
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Post by Lady Dark Moon on Oct 16, 2008 23:04:06 GMT -5
You know, we could go on for another five pages arguing about whether or not your post offended people and whether or not we had the right to be offended, but let's just stop please. Anyway. Back to keyo's original topic. I have a question for all you non-Americans. Do you guys have a pledge? Something you have to recite everyday? What exactly is the "God save the Queen" thing that keeps getting brought up? Pitiful attempt to change the subject. Ignore me or humor me
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Post by ladytera on Oct 17, 2008 3:38:31 GMT -5
Okay, since I have applied to be a MOD for this particular area, and Ammy is having a much deserved day off. I am going to pop my head in here, and beg you not to lop it off. First of all, I will be discussing the specific inflamatory statements made by Bubba's Dad in a separate PM. If I do get selected as a MOD, that's my best idea of how to handle this type of issue. I figure nobody likes to be dressed down in public, and this will help to get the thread back on track. Second of all, while I actually quite understand the reasons for the upset in this thread, although I've found it difficult to articulate in speaking with BD, I would remind all of you that this thread is in the debate section, rather than the discussion section. So, for any of you who still care to discuss the topic, which I truly hope that you do, because I think it is an interesting and worthwhile topic to discuss, please expect that your ideas and the basis for those ideas will be challenged. We've all proven, in other threads, that we are perfectly capable of exchanging, challenging, and defending our ideas respectfully. So, I look forward to continuing this conversation in that venue. Lastly, I'd like to apologize for not stepping in here sooner, and thank you for your patience. I had court yesterday, then work, and haven't had a chance to get online until this evening, and by then the fire was already raging. So, let us now begin with a new field. LDM, not a pitiful attempt to change the subject. I think that's actually a really interesting question, and I hope that those from elsewhere will take the time to share the traditions of their homelands in this area. I know many other nations have national anthems that are played and stood for at many events, but I myself really don't know which if any of them actually have a Pledge of Allegiance. I also found you point about overuse leading to apathy very on point. You see something similar with the recitation of the Lord's Prayer and many other oaths and vows. I would argue that during the years of school, it IS intended as a teaching tool. But, unfortunately, I don't think it is used that way as often as it should be, so many of the students begin to feel the same way about it as those who have expressed a distaste for it in this thread, and you are right, the words become hollow and lose their meaning. I do think, that in amongst the rest, Bubba's Dad did also have a couple of good points on why the pledge is taught. " it is a daily reminder to all that we must strive to uphold AMERICAN VALUES, that so many have fought and died for. It is also a pledge to do right by the Republic, our country, our fellow citizens. It is a reminder too, that this country fought a bloody Civil War, a war that forged us into a free and United people. And one last thing about the pledge, it gives all Americans common ground, our country is so large and filled with Americans from so many different back grounds, the pledge, like our Constitution, unites us." Perhaps read without the rancor, we might debate those points. As to the pledge not being taught in school, I can't say I agree with that. While I don't think that students should be forced to speak the pledge, if they should choose not too, I believe that should be left to the schools to determine. The reason? Citizens under the age of 18 have limitations on their rights, and if the school chooses to enforce the saying of the pledge, that's part of the school's rights based on the authority they have been given to teach. And, I believe it is the absolute responsibility of the schools to assure that every student knows and understands the pledge of allegiance, just as they must assure that every student knows and understands the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. Schools were originally instituted because a Republic government requires an informed electorate to function. The citizens of the country must be able to read, so they can know their rights and responsibilities, they must be able to do arithmetic, so they can understand the basics of the capitalist economy that is the foundation of our Republic, they must know history so they can understand the foundations of the Republic they will be responsible for as adults, and also to understand the alternatives that this Republic was formed to defend against. So, in that respect, it would be an absolute dereliction of duty on the part of the public school system if they did not teach the Pledge of Allegiance to the students they serve. I know there have been several other points brought up since I posted my own thoughts on this topic earlier, but I haven't had a chance to give all of them a thorough read yet. I'll get back with any other thoughts that strike me as soon as I can. (My mommy is visiting, and I'm trying to spend as much time as I can with her, 'cause I don't get to see her much). Until then, happy debating, and I hope this gets us all back on track.
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Eä
Student
I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it ~ Voltaire
Posts: 35
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Post by Eä on Oct 17, 2008 3:50:11 GMT -5
Oh well, so you've all posted about a page while I was asleep, thanks to being in a different part of the world! But like Lady Dark Moon says it seems there is no point in continuing the argument. Bubba's Dad, I accept your explanation, though I may still not agree on every point of yours. I respect your views but what offended me the most was your judgemental wording. You are perfectly entitled to the right of free speech, but phrasing opinions in a way that come off offending to others tend to take focus away from the real topic. (Feel free to call me EA or Ea.)
We don't have a Pledge here. So I was wondering actually, where and how does the US Pledge originate and since when did it become mandatory in schools? What is the history behind it and how does it function in the general US society today? And I'm not neccessarily asking for your personal opinions on the Pledge since many people already voiced that, but more of how people generally view it and where you would encounter it other than in schools?
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Post by ladytera on Oct 17, 2008 5:13:15 GMT -5
Yes, please let the argument die a natural death. As to your questions of history, I didn't know, so I looked it up. From Wikipedia: It is apparently no longer federally mandated in schools, but I'd guess that the Supreme Court decision overturning that compulsion must have thrown the decision back to the states, because I do think it is still mandatory in many places, and it is said in every school I'm aware of, whether the recitation by the students is mandatory or not. Other than in schools, you see it recited at many public events, including the opening of each day in Congress. Most military events would also open with it. Generally speaking most functions that have an American flag present on the platform from which people will be speaking will include the Pledge, at least in my experience. You also see it as the opening in many group meetings, such as Cub Scouts. Apparently, from my brief journey into Wikipedia history, it was originally designed, as I stated earlier, as a teaching tool for children so that they could get the basics of what America was all about in a short, easy to remember format. It was also designed to promote the idea of solidarity, equality, and inclusion for those coming to this country from far away places. As to how it is viewed today, most adults (please don't take that as agist) that I have encountered that say the pledge see it very much the same way as it was taught to them. It is a brief affirmation of our responsibilities to the country that we are a part of. In many cases, it is also a reminder of those who have gone before us, who have served well the country we love, and have died in the preservation of the freedoms this country stands for here and around the world. There have been many times where that simple 15 second pledge has brought grown men and women to tears, of gratitude and sorrow for all those who have given so much, and the blessings their sacrifices have left to us. As for the younger generations, I think it probably depends a lot on what stage of life you are at. The very young recite it because it is something they are taught, and as Caunion pointed out, especially if the history and meaning of it is not explained, they don't really understand what it is they are reciting. However, that really isn't much different than teaching young children the ABC song. They don't really grasp what the letters they are singing mean, what they are for, or how they relate to their speech and the book you are reading them after. But it is a building block that we use so they can more easily grasp the use of their letters as they become able to understand them. Children who are older, depending on if they have been taught what the Pledge means, tend to be curious about why we say it, what the words mean, and the story behind it. Thus, it does its job in helping us to teach them about their country. Teens, who are no longer children, but not quite adults, tend to be in a stage of life where they are questioning all the things they have been taught by rote as youngsters, and have wildly varying opinions on the Pledge and its place in our society. Some, as Caunion, object on various grounds, and probably choose not to say it as a demonstration of their basic disagreement with the premise. Others, like Keyodie, while she may not agree completely with the content, stand and either say the pledge or remain silent, out of respect for the beliefs of others around them. And others, such as Gil, embrace what the pledge means and say it out of respect for the ideals that it represents, even if they find it a little boring at times. Even in this diversity though, it does its job of teaching, because in each case, it has caused those people to evaluate their belief structure, the things they have learned and reach their own conclusions about what the Pledge, and to some extent their country, means to them at that point in their lives. I hope that answers at least some of your questions there.
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Post by ladytera on Oct 17, 2008 7:24:20 GMT -5
Ok, firstly I'm not from the USA and before this thread I'd never heard of the Pledge of Allegiance, so my opinion really don't count for much. All opinions count, and fresh eyes often bring new perspectives. ;D I touched on that earlier, so I won't keep repeating myself. As an American, I'd say we'd probably be a little pissed off were someone to try to install a monarchy. That is a very thoughtful and interesting insight into the similar feelings of two different systems. I like your point too that just because you don't want to be an American doesn't mean you hate us. That's a good point that is often missed. I happen to like Britain, Australia, Canada, and any number of other countries too, but I am American born and bred, and I wouldn't have it any other way. I love this country, warts and all. I think that's kind of an interesting and apt comparison as well. One of the reasons that the flag has been a significant symbol in American history, to the point that we have a Pledge of Allegiance, and it's mentioned in the National Anthem, and we have an entire code on the appropriate treatment of the flag, is probably that we don't have a monarchy or similar governmental structure. Our government, by design, changes every two years for Congress, four years for President, and six years for Senators. It was meant to be flexible to meet the needs of the citizens, and keep the chances of a ruling class developing to a minimum. But as such, there is no one person or family to point to and say "They represent America". Instead, we have a flag, that has grown with our country, and has been a symbol of our freedom, individualism, and ideals for a long time. To many the Pledge is an affirmation of the ideals the symbol represents, much as the Queen is the symbol of the ideals of Britain. I gotta say, I think that's pretty sad, and I share your pain. Along with the Pledge of Allegiance, the Star Spangled Banner is another poignant and meaningful expression of our love and respect for our country in this nation, and it is not really taught much. I never knew the story behind it until I was an adult (by the way, the tune was apparently an old British drinking song). Just as sadly, what you hear these days, sung at the beginning of baseball games, and occasionally elsewhere, is only the first verse. You'd be hard pressed to find many who actually know the entire song, or the story it tells. I have to plead ignorance here about God in the context of God Save the Queen, as I am a Yank, and I don't know it. But, the sentiment there is right, for most people, and for the folks who put God/Creator in the governmental language of America. Because we were founded with freedom of religion being a major principle, the folks who originally designed the Constitution would not have made reference to a particular God. While most of them believed in some kind of force behind the creation of the planet, some of them did not particularly believe in God. I believe it was Ben Franklin, one of the most notable founders, that was actually a Humanist. Now, don't ask me exactly what that is, but my impression was that man was his own destiny, and the there wasn't some all powerful God. As for the reference meaning that God was on the side of America, that's never how I've been taught or read that line. I reads one nation under God, not protected by God. I'd always understood that to mean that we were a nation guided by the morals and principles adopted by our founders mostly from the Judeo/Christian faith. Now, I understand that that could be taken to mean God refers to the Christian God, but those founders that adopted those principles were pretty clear that government could not dictate which God if any the citizens chose to believe in, so I'd never even consider that it could be meant as only referring to the Christian God. I suppose too, the word under there could be taken to mean "under his protection", but again, that never really seemed to fit with the historical context of God in this country. While most of the people in our government, and our country, over the years, have prayed for their God's guidance and His (or Her as the case may be) protection, I've never really met anyone (although I have read of a very few) who believed that that protection devolved to us just by our existence as a nation. So, I would never consider that to be what was meant, although I can understand a little where the impression might come from. Now, in this, I actually quite agree with you. I would never encourage a person to take an oath they did not believe in, all or in part. With the pledge, there's a fairly simple solution to that. If you don't believe in God, don't say it. If you do, then include that part. There is freedom of speech and religion here, which the flag being pledged to represents, so just because someone adopted those words as part of the pledge many years ago, doesn't mean that as an individual citizen you must say them. But, by the same token, just because an individual citizen doesn't believe in that one part, doesn't mean that the rest of the citizens should be forced to modify the pledge to suit them. Imho, you say the parts you mean, and if you can't or don't agree with parts of it, you don't say them. I don't think you particularly nullified your argument. If someone believes, as you do, that the Monarchy represents Britain, then standing in respect for the desire to see your Queen protected, at the very least shouldn't be a problem for them, even if they don't believe in God. And from there, if they choose to join in, all or in part, that's up to them. I'm pretty sure you guys still have freedom of speech there too (except maybe for the PC nazis, those guys really drive me nuts, and we've got 'em here too). As for explaining your opinions, I thought you did a rather nice job of it, shattered or not. Thanks for sharing. It was an interesting perspective.
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Eä
Student
I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it ~ Voltaire
Posts: 35
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Post by Eä on Oct 17, 2008 7:41:16 GMT -5
Ladytera, I didn't see your post before I posted mine earlier - apparently it took me longer to write it, thanks to the wonderful phoenomenon of multi-tasking... ;-) By the way, I always fail to remember the difference here between a 'debate' and a 'discussion'... to me it's two sides of the same coin really...
Thank you for enlightening me on the Pledge. Even when I was in the US I never thought much about it. I took it much as a cultural thing where so many smaller things are different from e.g. European ways. I took it for words, for values that didn't have any specific meaning to me as a foreigner, although I may stand up for most of them (Freedom rights, justice, liberty etc.) when I encounter them in other contexts. But in this particular context it represented general American patriotism and I couldn't earnestly take part in that, so my way of showing my respect to my friends was by standing with them. It is interesting to see your explanations and what meaning you all make of the Pledge.
(I'll be away for the weekend, so I won't be able to post here for the next couple of days.)
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Hravan
Journeyman
Life is a Musical
Posts: 106
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Post by Hravan on Oct 17, 2008 7:42:59 GMT -5
Anyway. Back to keyo's original topic. I have a question for all you non-Americans. Do you guys have a pledge? Something you have to recite everyday? What exactly is the "God save the Queen" thing that keeps getting brought up? Pitiful attempt to change the subject. Ignore me or humor me "God Save the Queen" is the National Anthem of the UK... God save our gracious Queen, Long live our noble Queen, God save the Queen! Send her victorious, Happy and Glorious, Long to reign over us; God save the Queen!O Lord our God arise, Scatter her enemies And make them fall; Confound their politics, Frustrate their knavish tricks, On Thee our hopes we fix, Oh, save us all! Thy choicest gifts in store On her be pleased to pour; Long may she reign; May she defend our laws, And ever give us cause To sing with heart and voice, God save the Queen! Not in this land alone, But be God's mercies known, From shore to shore! Lord make the nations see, That men should brothers be, And form one family, The wide world over From every latent foe, From the assassins blow, God save the Queen! O'er her thine arm extend, For Britain's sake defend, Our mother, prince, and friend, God save the Queen! That's all the verses. Normally only the first verse (or sometimes uses as a chorus) is sung. Sometimes the third verse is sung as well. Obviously when we have a male monarch it's "God Save the King" and the lines "To sing with heart and voice, God save the Queen!" changes to "with heart and voice to sing, God Save the King". It's usually sung at formal events now, mainly those when the Royals are present (Wimbledon for example) or if there are Royal connections (if the event has a royal patron etc.) Sometimes if an event has a military band performing they will play God Save the Queen. There are also other anthems for the different countries of the UK. God Save the Queen is the official one of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland but Wales has its own national anthem as well as God Save the Queen. The Welsh one is "Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau" or Land of my Fathers in English. But it's sung in Welsh. This site has a lot of information about it: www.bbc.co.uk/wales/music/sites/anthem/England also has other "anthems" or patriotic songs . They're not national anthems but they're often used at sporting events and are sometimes sung as well as God Save the Queen (I'm going to use GSQ from now on). Military bands from English regiments will usually perform them as well as GSQ. Jerusalam www.know-britain.com/songs/jerusalem.html This is used by the English cricket team. Land of Hope and Glory: www.know-britain.com/songs/land_of_hope_and_glory.html Used by the English rugby team, I think and by England at the Commonwealth Games.. Both of those can also be played at royal events etc but GSQ is the most common. I think Scotland and Northern Ireland also have their own "anthems" or patriotic songs but I don't know them as I live in England near to the Welsh border. I don't think they have their own national anthem as well as GSQ like Wales does though.... Oh, I almost forgot! Another song that can be played is "Rule, Britannia!" It's a lovely patriotic song of Britain... www.know-britain.com/songs/rule_britannia.htmlIt's also my personal favourite.... Singing it with thousands of other people to the amazing tune that is has played by a military band is just wonderful... I was slightly pissed off because I left cadets before I got a chance to learn how to play Rule Britannia. I know GSQ and the Pomp and Circumstance March (used as the tune for Land of Hope and Glory) but as Rule Britannia is harder to play on the fife I wasn't taught it. And I can't learn it because we weren't taught off sheet music, we we shown how to play it so we would memories it for our marches. So I have no idea what sheet music for my fife looks like. No, we don't have a national pledge. However, there are sort of similar pledges/promises at Brownies, Girl Guides, Cubs, Boy Scouts, Cadets etc But unless you join those organisations (I've been a Brownie, a Guide and an air cadet) then you don't have to make any pledge/promise like that. I posted the Air Training Corps Cadet Promise in my other post but I'll post it again. "I Cadet *Name*, hereby solemnly promise on my honour to serve my Unit loyally and to be faithful to my obligations as a member of the Air Training Corps. I further promise to be a good citizen and to do my duty to God and the Queen, my Country and my Flag." But obviously, if you're not in cadets (I think the army and the navy one is similar) then there is no pledge. Oh and cadets, like Brownies, Guides etc, is completely optional. You don't have to join them, but it is commonplace (at least where I grew up) for children to become Brownies (girls) or Cubs (boys) and then when they're 10-14 they become Girl Guides or Boy Scouts. The Brownie/Guide promise is: "I promise that I will do my best: To love my God, To serve the Queen and my country ,To help other people and To keep the Brownie Guide/Guide Law."
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Raivynn
Journeyman
...my winter storm
Posts: 187
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Post by Raivynn on Oct 17, 2008 7:51:57 GMT -5
Sorry to bring this up again, but I run off a different time zone, so I'm only just catching up with the place. There's no probably I'm afraid. It was out of line as far as I'm concerned. You took my anti-Royal stance and decided I had hatred for someone. Nice presumption, but again I say. Wrong. I don't hate anyone. That may not be believable to some, but I speak with absolute honesty when I say it. You say my family wasn't right for spitting on me. Yet I've to show them respect? I'm sorry. I did respect my Grandmother and loved her unconditionally, until the day I was verbally abused and then spat on because I didn't follow her opinion. I should just shut up and take it should I? At that moment, my respect for her died. There are other reasons for this, that I choose not to go into. As for standing for the Queen. If I were to do that, I would be being dishonest with my family and myself and that's just not the sort of person I am. I have to be true to myself and what I feel inside. I stand up for what I believe in, I always have even from a very young age. I've always been outspoken and because of that was constantly referred to as "the black sheep" of the family. At the time, it hurt to be considered somewhat of an outcast within your own flesh and blood. But as I got older, I embraced it. Now, again I ask. Can you see where there would be bitterness and resentment? Or am I still this disrespectful hater? Again, sorry for re-opening the wound. But felt I had to clarify my position. As far as I'm concerned it's done. No further responses to it will be posted by me in this thread. **EDIT** Just to follow on from Hravan's post about the anthems (which I completely forgot to touch upon ) Scotland has two 'anthems'. Scotland the Brave and the much preferred and most often used Flower of Scotland. There used mainly for National events like Football and Rugby. I believe Northern Ireland uses God Save the Queen exclusively. Though I'd need to research that.
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sakaido
Journeyman
Ryuichi+Coffee=Best icon ever.
Posts: 111
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Post by sakaido on Oct 17, 2008 8:30:02 GMT -5
Uhm Keyo.... I actually do believe I said in the pro-choice thread that I didn't think males had a right to an opinion on the matter. I'm almost dead sure.
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Post by ladytera on Oct 17, 2008 12:23:20 GMT -5
Uhm Keyo.... I actually do believe I said in the pro-choice thread that I didn't think males had a right to an opinion on the matter. I'm almost dead sure. =/ I'm almost dead sure too. But, you supported your argument when challenged and did not make personal attacks. So, at least so far as this thread goes, we'll forgive you. RP (sorry I get a little acronystic when I'm short on time) - while I appreciate the feeling of needing to respond and make yourself understood, and I appreciate that you have been offline during the time many of us are up and about, and the debate rages on, I will ask, as I'm sure keyodie will as well, that you stick to that promise this is the last post on this topic. Not to sound like a meanie, but from previous experience, on other boards that span time zones, this need to address it one more time, for whatever reason, no matter how justifiable, is what will eventually kill a thread, derailing it to such an extent that noone bothers looking anymore to see if a new post might actually be relevant because they don't feel like wading through the other stuff. So, for any of you, or all of you that are still feeling a need to chime in off topic, please don't. You can either PM Bubba's Dad, PM me, or if there's a real overwhelming need, we can start a thread in the rant section about generalizations, grouchy people, and any other aspect of it that you still feel a need to vent about, and move the conversation there so it doesn't distract from the lovely dialog that is trying to take root once again here. All done, *sigh*, I hope. RP - thanks for the info on anthems. I really get a kick out of the multiple ones I've been hearing about. Also, while I can understand your personal objection, I have to say that God Save the Queen has beautiful lyrics. Thanks hravan for posting it. I have to run right now. I have an awards ceremony for the kiddies to get to, and I'm running late. I'll check back in later. LT
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Post by keyodie on Oct 17, 2008 15:33:00 GMT -5
Well no, I meant that you didn't address his post specifically when you said it. You didn't tell him that he didn't have a right to his opinion because he was a male.
LT, about your earlier post, thanks for clearing that up. I do realize that it's supposed to suggest religious freedom and such, unfortunately it has never seemed that way to most. I think it would be a very good idea to elaborate more on the pledge and its meaning in public schools.
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dark
Student
Woah.
Posts: 16
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Post by dark on Oct 19, 2008 0:22:24 GMT -5
I thought I'd throw my $0.02 in. (totally stole that whole "0.02" thing from ladytera. It rocks my world)
As a Canadian, I don't really have that big of a problem with a pledge of allegiance. We have something similar that we had to repeat in elementary school. I didn't really know all of the words until grade two or three. It never had an impact on me, and it still doesn't. Heck, I don't even remember the words.
I think for me, an anthem will always hold more power and pride for my country than a pledge of allegiance will. When a Canadian wins a gold medal at the olympics, they don't repeat the allegiance, they sing the anthem as the flag is being raised.
If I did go to an American school and was made to repeat the pledge of allegiance, I probably wouldn't. Blah blah blah, I'm not American, I'm a teenager, I'm whiney, I don't show respect for the "world's most free country" whatever. If I was an American citizen, I wouldn't repeat it. I'd stand for sure, that's just respect for the American soldiers that died for my freedom, but I would not talk along with the pledge. The anthem? Yes.
That's just my input.
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